Tell me about being genderqueer (& etc)

[Spoons]

The idea of trumpeting to the world that “Whoo-hoo, I’m a _____” (gay, transgendered, bisexual, atheist, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, non-religious, snake-handler, Ford-hater, Chevy-lover, hip-hop aficionado, disco-sucks-guy, Steelers fan, Notre Dame hater, an artist, a writer, a composer, and so on, and so on, and so on) seems to me to be largely a function of undergrads leaving their parents’ home and finally being able to state who they believe themselves to be without their parents’ approval or disapproval.

Is that what’s happening here?

I called myself many things when I was younger, but I grew out of it as I got older and escaped my parents’ world. Simple, easy, labels no longer define me; and frankly, they never suitably did. Now, I simply am, and no matter what I’ve been called (asshole, great guy, scholar, loser, fuckup, superstar, and so many others), I don’t give a hang. I know who I am, and I’m happy being me.

Maybe, Silver Tyger, you should just be you, and ignore the labels.

[Lamia]

@Inner_Stickler

So, really no.

Really yes, although I’m not sure why you asked the question in the first place. There are people in this very thread who identify as genderqueer. I spend a lot of time here and will probably be interacting with them again on the SDMB even if we never meet in person.

But, really unless you were under the impression your friend is a lesbian you’d assume her partner is a man anyway so you’re in the same boat, informationwise, either way and if you ever do meet the spouse, you won’t be taken aback if they do flout traditional gender constructs.

I wouldn’t be taken aback by someone’s flouting of traditional gender roles anyway, but my friend is a lesbian so there’s a limit to how traditional a romantic partner of hers could be. The “genderqueer” label tells me nothing I consider particularly useful about her spouse and really raises more questions than answers.

Now, there’s no reason this should stop my friend’s spouse or anyone else from considering themselves to be genderqueer. If they consider it a helpful way to think about themselves then that’s great. However, I remain unclear as to what is supposed to be accomplished by telling others that one is genderqueer. Just knowing that someone is genderqueer tells me little if anything about what I should expect from them or what they are going to expect from me.

[lorene]

@Silver_Tyger

Yes, you should be comfortable enough to just be yourself without needing a label (and I am, mostly). But a label helps you explain to others why you’re different from them and how, without resorting to long explanations.

I don’t have much to say about most of this thread, particularly as I don’t even understand about half of the terms being used here, but the above jumped out at me. I wonder if your second sentence there is part of the disconnect in this thread. Sometimes looking for commonalities with people is a lot more fulfilling and less taxing than pointing out how different you are.

[Silver_Tyger]

@monstro

Of course you’re free to tell your mother or anyone else whatever you want to tell them. I’m just saying that you should be prepared for confusion and not-understandings and maybe some exasperation about having another unusual label to add to your resume.

Shit, I’m already used to having to explain myself. Now, I just know what word to use.

@AClockworkMelon

Don’t apologize, monstro. If Silver Tyger says that she didn’t take sexual pleasure from being pegged by a pair of femdommes that’s fine by me but you shouldn’t have to walk around on eggshells when describing BDSM. For the vast majority of people it’s sexual.

:rolleyes: x infinity.

@coolbyrne

As is furry fandom. Perhaps for Silver Tyger, it isn’t sexual. But to say the entire sub culture is only about people who are into “anthro” or talking animals is farcical in its generalization.

:rolleyes: x infinity times two.

I’ll leave those two at that, because this isn’t the thread for it. Let’s just say, you’re wrong. I may oversimplify a little (both the furry fandom and BDSM have a lot of aspects - spiritual, recreational, friendship-building, and yes, sexual - and yes BDSM is more sexual than furry fandom), but again not the thread for it.

@Lamia

I could see it maybe being useful for people who differ enough from traditional gender norms that they are often mistaken for the wrong sex or sexual orientation – “No, I’m not gay, I get that a lot. I’m genderqueer!” – except that, as typoink points out, the term is likely to be misunderstood to mean that the person is gay.

Which is admittedly another reason I prefer the term androgyne. My family ‘does not discuss’ such things in public (although I know my mom talks to a couple of people). I’m sure somebody thought I was a lesbian.

@Inner_Stickler

Has anyone identified theirself as genderqueer to you in real life? Then I wouldn’t worry about it.

Of course they have.

@expectopatronum

i have to agree that the OP’s description of her(?)self reads like a parody at this point. of course bdsm is sexual. asexual folks generally don’t participate in such things because they are not interested in sex at all, hence the term.

[snip]

OP, you really come across as a weirdo who is grasping at straws trying to find labels to mark you special and unique rather than just strange. we all have our quirks, but good lord. also, the explanations notwithstanding, it is very very very very strange to share your bdsm activities with a parent. i mean, really.

No, I’m just plain a weirdo. The labels are just a peg to hang a description on. I’ve always been like this. And I don’t share my BDSM activities with my parents. They just know that I’m into it, like I know stuff about their sex lives (not by my choice). When they ask where I’m going, I tell them. I don’t tell them what I’m doing. And again, sometimes they see rope marks or other things.

Again, BDSM can be many things to many people. Which is why one popular alternate label is WIITWD (what it is that we do). I do it because I enjoy it, not because it gives me tingly feelings (those are a bonus and don’t happen all the time.)

And YES, asexual people can enjoy BDSM. Cites:

• Resources for the Asexual and Kinky
• Asexual and submissive blogger
• What Happens When Asexuals Want to Get Kinky? (Extremely relevant quote: "In spite of our insistence on viewing sex as a positive thing, nonsexual BDSM is common in the kink community. Especially with a pickup scene that’s negotiated and conducted at a kinky social gathering, it is most often assumed that sex will not be part of the program. "
• Thread at Asexuality Visibility and Education Network
• Asexual who wants BDSM video - which is linked in a lot of places.

@lorene

I don’t have much to say about most of this thread, particularly as I don’t even understand about half of the terms being used here, but the above jumped out at me. I wonder if your second sentence there is part of the disconnect in this thread. Sometimes looking for commonalities with people is a lot more fulfilling and less taxing than pointing out how different you are.

I am looking for commonalities. I have things in common with asexuals, genderqueer individuals, Ren Faire people, geeks, scifi fans, anime fans, etc etc etc. I don’t really have very much in common with my parents, except antique shopping and shows about it, and that we don’t get enough exercise.
But I really didn’t mean to make this thread about me and somehow I did. So I apologize to any other people who wanted to speak up and then felt uncomfortable about it. I’m not going to post any more because I don’t think it’ll be productive in any way.

[coolbyrne]

I’ll leave those two at that, because this isn’t the thread for it. Let’s just say, you’re wrong. I may oversimplify a little (both the furry fandom and BDSM have a lot of aspects - spiritual, recreational, friendship-building, and yes, sexual - and yes BDSM is more sexual than furry fandom), but again not the thread for it.

Bolding is mine. So where am I wrong when I say:

Perhaps for Silver Tyger, it isn’t sexual. But to say the entire sub culture is only about people who are into “anthro” or talking animals is farcical in its generalization.

You’ve moved the goal posts and YOU’RE the one rolling your eyes to infinity? I quote:

Okay you just hit my basically only big ol’ button. Furry fandom is not bleeping sexual!!! All it means is that you like things with anthro or talking animals. Period. We’ve had threads about this, for pete’s sake.

Again, bolding is mine.

So which is it? Is there a sexual aspect to the furry fandom, or does it only involve liking things with anthro or talking animals? Period?

[monstro]

Silver Tyger, I didn’t mean to trip any of your wires.

It’s just confusing, all the labels and descriptors. And they are not subtly confusing, but obviously confusing. Labels can only serve as close approximations of Truth, and even then their effectiveness depends on everyone having a common understanding. Once you take that common understanding away, a label becomes absolutely nothing but a major pain the neck–a source of tension and frustration. No one likes to be wrong. You don’t like being characterized inaccurately, and other people don’t like being corrected they are simply unaware of the various nuances of a term. Communication breaks down when both sides are unhappy.

If you told me you were into BDSM, I would think, “Oh, she’s into a specific sexual activity.” Why the hell wouldn’t I? That’s what “BDSM” connotes to most people, especially “outsiders.” The same with “furries”. That label conjures up an image–not people singing Christmas songs while dressed up as Alvin and the Chipmunks, but of Alvin getting it on with Simon and Theodore.

Likewise, “genderqueer” conjures up a specific image too. If you don’t look androgynous (or rather, androgynous enough), then people are going to be naturally confused. It may be stupid or ill-informed of them, but knowing this is not going to change the fact that you will always be on the defensive, having to summon up patience and understanding, whenever the topic is broached. And once you “come out”, there’s no going back in. That’s the horrible thing about a label. People never forget what you tell them. They’re always looking for a “gotcha” to show you that your perspective is all wrong, especially if they can show when you’ve been wrong in the past. (Can you tell I’m VERY cynical?)

I can’t imagine why it would be worth it, but obviously YMMV. I hope that when you do tell someone, you’re able to get something positive out of it.

[AqualungBats5th]

sorry to hijack your thread, Silver Tyger, especially as someone that identifies pretty strongly as a man.. but I just can’t not respond to this.

@Spoons

The idea of trumpeting to the world that “Whoo-hoo, I’m a _____” (gay, transgendered, bisexual, atheist, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, non-religious, snake-handler, Ford-hater, Chevy-lover, hip-hop aficionado, disco-sucks-guy, Steelers fan, Notre Dame hater, an artist, a writer, a composer, and so on, and so on, and so on) seems to me to be largely a function of undergrads leaving their parents’ home and finally being able to state who they believe themselves to be without their parents’ approval or disapproval.

Okay, look, the first three things on your list there, in terms of sharing them with the rest of the world, are not anything like the rest of the list. And frankly, unless you fit into one of those groups (and making that comparison I have to assume you do not), it’s pretty insulting that you would presume to understand what the experience of coming out of the closet for a queer person of any stripe is like. I assure you, it has very little to do with seeking approval from parents, considering how often it actually results in being actively disowned by one’s family.

[Broomstick]

@monstro

Likewise, “genderqueer” conjures up a specific image too. If you don’t look androgynous (or rather, androgynous enough), then people are going to be naturally confused.

As has been mentioned, it’s not just looks and it’s not just what you wear. As an example, earlier this week we were sharing anecdotes at work and after one my boss looks at me and says “Don’t take this the wrong way, but you’re the most bull dyke straight chick I’ve ever met.” Mind you, I’ve got long hair, I look like a girl, I even dress like a girl quite often, but I do things more typical of boys. My body language might be feminine or it might be “mannish”, mannish to the point that, despite the long hair, I’ve occasionally been mistaken for a man in certain circumstances. In many ways I do resemble a stereotypical “bull dyke” but I’m actually heterosexual. I mix and match more than most do.

Does that make me genderqueer? I don’t know. It’s not a label I’ve used for myself. On the other hand, if someone asked me that, or suggested that, it might apply depending on how they define it.

[monstro]

@Broomstick

As has been mentioned, it’s not just looks and it’s not just what you wear. As an example, earlier this week we were sharing anecdotes at work and after one my boss looks at me and says “Don’t take this the wrong way, but you’re the most bull dyke straight chick I’ve ever met.” Mind you, I’ve got long hair, I look like a girl, I even dress like a girl quite often, but I do things more typical of boys. My body language might be feminine or it might be “mannish”, mannish to the point that, despite the long hair, I’ve occasionally been mistaken for a man in certain circumstances. In many ways I do resemble a stereotypical “bull dyke” but I’m actually heterosexual. I mix and match more than most do.

Does that make me genderqueer? I don’t know. It’s not a label I’ve used for myself. On the other hand, if someone asked me that, or suggested that, it might apply depending on how they define it.

I said it wasn’t just about looks earlier, if you recall. It is my understanding that the term “androgynous” refers to both one’s mien and appearance.

What I’m saying is if an individual can pass, as Silver Tyger said she can/does, then that means she’s going to be called to explain herself over and over again if she says she’s genderqueer. The people who ask for clarification aren’t going to be all jerks, either. They are just going to be curious.

Silver Tyger mentioned she wanted a label so that she could describe herself in a concise way. I suspect she’s not going to get that from any label, especially one like “genderqueer”. But I may be wrong, not knowing anything about her.

[AHunter3]

I’ve had people react by insisting “AHunter3, wtf are you talking about, you’re one of the most masculine males, you obviously are attracted to women, so what are you talking about?”

I’ve had people react by listening and noddling slowly, unsure how it fits in with what they already know about me, not really sure what these descriptions mean in the language of their own head.

I’ve had people react, either immediately or after some additional time to observe and absorb, with “Oh shit, yeah, I totally thought you were gay, so THAT’S it, huh?” or “I get it! You’re a GIRL! You ARE! I didn’t know what you meant at first but I see it now” or “It really doesn’t bother you to have male parts? Me, I’ve always known. But you’re right, a lot of what you say is true for me too”.

On this very board, I got a PM inviting me to speak to a small college group on the subject, and I had a wonderful time; it was my first truly public and truly in-person coming-out experience. The folks I spoke to were very familiar in general with LGBTQ issues and they got it. I made sense to them! Do you have any idea how wonderful that is when it’s so rare? I was the Q in LGBTQ. They welcomed me in.

It matters.

[Silver_Tyger]

@coolbyrne

So which is it? Is there a sexual aspect to the furry fandom, or does it only involve liking things with anthro or talking animals? Period?

Like I said, I oversimplified, because everyone wrongly assumes that furry fandom is just sexual. The best objective description of the fandom is at Tvtropes. Furry fandom is no more just about sex, then Star Trek fandom is about dressing up like a Klingon.

@monstro

If you told me you were into BDSM, I would think, “Oh, she’s into a specific sexual activity.” Why the hell wouldn’t I? That’s what “BDSM” connotes to most people, especially “outsiders.” The same with “furries”. That label conjures up an image–not people singing Christmas songs while dressed up as Alvin and the Chipmunks, but of Alvin getting it on with Simon and Theodore.

That means people are uneducated, not that the label is wrong. Y’know, fifty years ago being homosexual meant people assumed you were a pedophile. Just because that’s the stereotype doesn’t make it true.

Unless you’re part of the group and know its dynamics, you can’t define what it is or is not. And that goes for any group.

I think we’re running around is circles, and we’ve gotten way off topic (why are we talking about furries and kinksters in a thread about gender?) so I’m going to ask a mod to close this. (And next time I start a thread like this, somebody smack me, okay? Somehow I never mean them to become about me and they do. :smack:)

If somebody wants to start a new thread, please go ahead. AHunter, I’d love to hear more about your experiences, if you’re willing to talk about them.

If somebody wants to discuss me, my PM box is empty. If somebody wants to pit me for being a lying freak, hey, I’ve never gotten pitted. I love to point and laugh at people who are wrong (although I won’t argue the freak part).

[Freudian_Slit]

@Silver_Tyger

Well, they know I’m into BDSM, because I’ve made lots of friends through it - parties, classes, munches (get-togethers over food), etc. As long as I live with them, they want to know where I’m going, more or less, and when I expect to get home. And sometimes they see rope marks on my arms or whatever. It’d be nice if we could sit down and talk about it calmly (she’s gotten better).

I get tired of being expected to dress and act like a girl. I don’t do it well and never have. Just like I had a hard time passing as ‘normal’ when I was more asexual. Like I said, my mom is cool with me dressing strangely - whether that’s mixing genders, crossdressing, or whatever - but I doubt she gets that it’s more than clothes. And the rest of my family, and my non-BDSM friends don’t know and wouldn’t get it.

I think that just adds another layer of weirdness to it, that you need permission from your parents to go participate in BDSM.

Really, do you have to tell them it’s a BDSM class/party/lunch? Or is it that you just like the idea of shocking them? Similarly, for the rope marks, you have no long sleeved items?

[Ellen_Cherry]

Closed at the request of OP