Tell me about Eve Online

[FinnAgain]

@Whack-a-Mole

There is a reason for their overwhelming popularity and it is not because they are as simply dealt with as you would suggest.

Well, obviously a reason for popularity would be usefulness, not lack of such.
Nor are they necessarily ‘simply’ dealt with, but if you have a gang that’s working well together then yeah, there are some easy counters that one can use.

@Whack-a-Mole

Mostly people use them because they are a “get out of fight” free card. Yes some things can scare a Vaga off but if that is the case he just scoots. A serious web attempt really needs a Huginn present. If the Vaga pilot gets hit with neuts he can easily coast out of range and disengage.

First off, if you’re able to hit him with neuts but don’t have fast tackle to lock him down after that, your gang composition is screwed and it’s not quite fair to blame that on the opposing pilot. Mini recon ships and electronic attack ships are just icing on the cake. No Vaga pilot (at least, one that fits autocannons) can get within range of a few neuts without turning into a great big target. And, as I said, any decently kitted out gang will have at least one ship that is a fast tackler and can get point and web on a cap drained vaga, fast.

Heck, even a PvP fitted battleship should be able to get into web range and slap some hurt on the Vaga once a fast tackling ship holds it down for a short while.

@Whack-a-Mole

Killing a nano-Vaga (as if there is any other kind) is more a matter of luck (lag spike) or a very dumb pilot.

Same with, for instance, cov ops and recon ships. If I allow my Rapier to get scrammed and webbed, I’ve screwed up. There should pretty much be no circumstances, if I’m flying smart, where I am in serious danger.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@FinnAgain

Well, obviously a reason for popularity would be usefulness, not lack of such.

It’s more than that though. It has often been noted that battles are won or lost in the fitting screen. When that fitting becomes by default a nano setup for most any ship then something is amiss. Again I am talking about more than the Vaga here. The Vaga is supposed to do what it does and that’s fine but when most ships you meet are nanoed then that is goofy and a broken mechanic.

First off, if you’re able to hit him with neuts but don’t have fast tackle to lock him down after that, your gang composition is screwed and it’s not quite fair to blame that on the opposing pilot. Mini recon ships and electronic attack ships are just icing on the cake. No Vaga pilot (at least, one that fits autocannons) can get within range of a few neuts without turning into a great big target. And, as I said, any decently kitted out gang will have at least one ship that is a fast tackler and can get point and web on a cap drained vaga, fast.

So the only useful counter to your one ship is at least two ships on my side? And my choices for those two ships is very narrow (something with big time neuts and a fast tackler)? Maybe a third ship for DPS to really pull it off? If I bring anything else to the show forget it? Yeah…that’s balance. :rolleyes:

Heck, even a PvP fitted battleship should be able to get into web range and slap some hurt on the Vaga once a fast tackling ship holds it down for a short while.

How in the world can a battleship get web range on a nano almost anything?

Same with, for instance, cov ops and recon ships. If I allow my Rapier to get scrammed and webbed, I’ve screwed up. There should pretty much be no circumstances, if I’m flying smart, where I am in serious danger.

Both ships in that case are doing what they are supposed to do (as I mentioned a Vaga is doing what it is supposed to do). An equivalent would be to suppose everyone fit CovOps cloaks on their ships as everyone puts nanoes on their ships.

And both a CovOps and a Force Recon are not terribly combat capable (CovOps pretty much not at all, Force Recon needs to be pretty choosy).

Again, I think the Vaga is mostly fine as is because that is its role. I think nano everything else should (and probably will) get hit with the nerfbat.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@counsel wolf

http://killboard.red-alliance.su/?op=kill&id=252953

The russians have been having fun with these recently, so keep an eye on local. Note that that’s a high sec kill.

This is a perfect example of the need to use undock bookmarks and using them everytime you undock in anything of value.

[counsel_wolf]

@Whack-a-Mole

This is a perfect example of the need to use undock bookmarks and using them everytime you undock in anything of value.

Haven’t talked to the people on this exact kill, but mostly they’ve been scanning down mission runners with a cov-ops and warping in the suicide gank ravens @ 0. Fit one of them with a warp scram and the Golem is pretty much dead in the water before concord arrive.

[Gorsnak]

@Whack-a-Mole

This is a perfect example of the need to use undock bookmarks and using them everytime you undock in anything of value.

More likely to have been at a gate than at a station. At a station you can see them when you undock, then use your undocking invulnerability to wait out most of your session timer and immediately redock. At a gate there’s no defense from a half dozen suicide torp Ravens besides aligning faster than they can lock to tackle, or knowing they’re there and avoiding them.

[Gorsnak]

@counsel wolf

Haven’t talked to the people on this exact kill, but mostly they’ve been scanning down mission runners with a cov-ops and warping in the suicide gank ravens @ 0. Fit one of them with a warp scram and the Golem is pretty much dead in the water before concord arrive.

You can’t warp in to a deadspace at zero. You land on the gate/beacon. Judging by the cargo contents on the killmail the guy had just run Cargo Delivery (or as I like to call it, Fetch the Quafe), and was on his way back.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@Gorsnak

More likely to have been at a gate than at a station. At a station you can see them when you undock, then use your undocking invulnerability to wait out most of your session timer and immediately redock. At a gate there’s no defense from a half dozen suicide torp Ravens besides aligning faster than they can lock to tackle, or knowing they’re there and avoiding them.

True.

They really need to remove insurance payouts if you are CONCORDed.

[counsel_wolf]

@Whack-a-Mole

True.

They really need to remove insurance payouts if you are CONCORDed.

Why? The game is meant to be fairly brutal, plenty of other games to play if you want to pve in complete safety (My wow characters are on pve realms for example).

[Whack-a-Mole]

@counsel wolf

Why? The game is meant to be fairly brutal, plenty of other games to play if you want to pve in complete safety (My wow characters are on pve realms for example).

CCP even recently said that they felt the economics of the suicide gank were out of line and needed adjusting.

Insurance payouts seriously mitigate the penalty for committing a criminal act. Most people find it absurd to be rewarded in this fashion.

The gank would still be possible…it would just change the economics of what is worth ganking. That Golem might well still be worth taking down.

[counsel_wolf]

@Whack-a-Mole

Most people find it absurd to be rewarded in this fashion.

The gank would still be possible…it would just change the economics of what is worth ganking. That Golem might well still be worth taking down.

I don’t see what’s absurd. In a hyper capitalist universe like eve why does an insurance company care what you were doing when your ship blew up? This is just reaction to the torrent of tears brought on by jihadswarm. There are legitimate counters available to this (for example that golem had a gaping EM resist hole that if he had patched would have prevented the gank). The people whining just don’t want their expensive toys blown up. I have a certain amount of sympathy for this position but eve is the game it is precisely because it penalises stupidity/laziness so brutally hard. If they want to reshard eve so there’s a risk free pve only version they should say so.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@counsel wolf

I don’t see what’s absurd. In a hyper capitalist universe like eve why does an insurance company care what you were doing when your ship blew up? This is just reaction to the torrent of tears brought on by jihadswarm. There are legitimate counters available to this (for example that golem had a gaping EM resist hole that if he had patched would have prevented the gank). The people whining just don’t want their expensive toys blown up. I have a certain amount of sympathy for this position but eve is the game it is precisely because it penalises stupidity/laziness so brutally hard. If they want to reshard eve so there’s a risk free pve only version they should say so.

First a suicide gank is unique in being a criminal action. It should not be handled on the same level as normal pew pew. There are supposed to be extra downsides for engaging in that behavior and as it stands that is only a ding to your sec status which is all too easily sidestepped by the gankers.

Second the whines were there long before Jihadswarm ganking Hulks. It has been a perpetual whine on the forums since, well, forever (I remember the suicide cruise missile Kestrels…talk about unbalanced).

Third a competent suicide gank is nearly impossible to defend against. Those guys knew of the hole in the Golem and reacted accordingly but if he plugged it they would have known it and still pulled off the gank. I could have 20 guards with me and still be ganked. Active tanks are near useless. All you can do is passive as best as possible and hope and of course a freighter has no modules so cannot do anything. If the freighter is over a certain value in cargo it is a target…period. Thing is it is trivially easy to fill a freighter over that value (hell…a full load of Trit will get you halfway there).

Note this is even without laziness. This is with an active pilot. I agree if you AFK with 5 billion in cargo you get what is coming to you. But I am not a whole lot better off even at the keyboard.

CCP has already stated they will be modifying the economics of this. From what they said my guess is they will piss everyone off. Not enough to placate carebears and anything is too much for the pirates.

[mswas]

@Whack-a-Mole

CCP even recently said that they felt the economics of the suicide gank were out of line and needed adjusting.

Insurance payouts seriously mitigate the penalty for committing a criminal act. Most people find it absurd to be rewarded in this fashion.

The gank would still be possible…it would just change the economics of what is worth ganking. That Golem might well still be worth taking down.

I think it makes sense to give an insurance penalty. After all that’s not like they are tweaking the game mechanics to avoid an issue, but it’s like the governments changing the law. Or even insurance companies. Like a real world insurance company would have a clause saying, “We are not liable to pay out in the case of suicide ganking.”, it’s actually unrealistic to think that an insurance company would pay out for someone kamikazeing the bird. So in this case, it’s actually kind of cheesy that a person gets a payout for a maneuver where they know they are going to be killed. This would easily change the playing field in terms of suicide ganking though.

[mswas]

They should improve insurance. Set it up so insurance is cheaper but paid out by the week, withholding payouts for criminal activities and rising premiums for those who get killed often. In short, run it like a real insurance company.

[mswas]

Someone explain speed to me?

My frigates seem slow. Is this true? What ships are fast? I created a sniper Maulus that can target enemies from 35k, which is out of range of most of the enemies I face. Is there any benefit to nanoing the the structure to make it faster? Will it inhance my speed significantly? What are the best ways to make a Maulus faster, or should I even bother?

[FinnAgain]

@consel wolf

There are legitimate counters available to this (for example that golem had a gaping EM resist hole that if he had patched would have prevented the gank).

Actually, most suicide gank squads make sure to fit heavy neuts. Any tank that Golem had would’ve just gone to enrich his gankers, unfortunately. Or at least, that’s how TRI did it when they were busy suicide ganking, I’m not sure about RA.

@Whack-a-Mole

So the only useful counter to your one ship is at least two ships on my side? And my choices for those two ships is very narrow (something with big time neuts and a fast tackler)?

It is balanced. For a very, very basic nano setup, I’ve got to spend at least 200 mil. with that, you can buy, what, 40 fully fitted coercers? More?
It is fitting that such an expensive ship be useful.

And along the same lines, how many ships does it take to catch my Rapier?
At least three fast tackling ships, as if you send only two, I’ll just web 'em and stay out of their range forever.

Heck, a sniper fit Mega can beat an unlimited number of other battleships if they don’t have a cov ops/recon getting them decent warp in points, and the sniper does.
You’ll generally need at least two ships, if not more, to deal with a T2 blaster fitted Mega, for that matter. Engage it with a couple of cruise missile Ravens, and it’ll eat them alive. The Mega isn’t unbalanced, either.
Etc…

Balance in PvP does not mean that all/most other ships can 1v1 it.
Balance means that there is an effective ‘rock, paper, scissors’ method of countering it or destroying it.

And as I said, a single nano-ship is often a perfectly viable counter to any other nano-ship. If you don’t fit a competitive PvP fit, or don’t have a balanced PvP gang, you can’t compete with competitive PvP’ers. Which is fair.

And in the right circumstances, you really only need one specialized ship, but more are nice. My shields, in that engagement, were down by about 10%. If the other three ships hadn’t showed up, I still would’ve ripped the Vaga to pieces as I was well outside his effective range. And pointing out that specialized ships counter specialized ships actually speaks to a good degree of balance.

@Whack-a-Mole

How in the world can a battleship get web range on a nano almost anything?

Nano’d ships almost definitely have to get within standard heavy neut range, especially overheated neut range. At which point, they lose WMD and coast. Fast tackle can get on them, and lock them down. If your battleship doesn’t have a MWD fit, you’re not in a PvP fit. If it does, you can then catch the scrammed/webbed nanoship and slap your own web and scram on it while your fast tackle bugs out.

@Whack-a-Mole

Both ships in that case are doing what they are supposed to do (as I mentioned a Vaga is doing what it is supposed to do). An equivalent would be to suppose everyone fit CovOps cloaks on their ships as everyone puts nanoes on their ships.

Actually, a more apt analogy is how everybody can fit prototype or improved cloaks on their ships. A Vaga is designed for speed and is far and away superior at speed tanking than any other normal nano-ship. As such, other nano’d ships go fast, but not blazingly fast. Just like other ships can fit cloaks, but can’t warp with them on.

@Whack-a-Mole

Again, I think the Vaga is mostly fine as is because that is its role. I think nano everything else should (and probably will) get hit with the nerfbat.

The problem is, it’s very hard to actually do that. You can nerf overdrives, but that huts Vagas and inties, which are supposed to go very fast. Nerf nanofibers and you nerf everything, Vagas and inties included. Same with polycarbons. The only way I see to do it would be to add mass to all ‘non-nano’ ships, but that will mean that they can warp a smaller distance for the same amount of cap.

Honestly, I don’t see anything being broken. Nano ships are specialized, and generally take specialized tactics or ships to kill them. Much like most specialized ships.

[FinnAgain]

@mswas

Someone explain speed to me?

Meters per second, velocity through space with an upper bound and acceleration like a blue water navy instead of relativistic physics like a true black space navy.

@mswas

My frigates seem slow. Is this true?

Frigates are the fastest class of ships, so I’m not quite sure what you’re expecting. If you want to check out the speed of ships, look at their info.

@mswas

What ships are fast?

Frigates are generally the fastest ships. T2 frigates (interceptors) are faster and lighter. The Vagabond is the fastest cruiser in the game. Minmatar ships tend to be faster than the ships of any other navy, Amarr tend to be slower.

Speed is generally calculated with MWD on. MWD’ing velocity is a function of Newtons/Mass (roughly). So nanofiber internals and polycarbons reduce mass, which increases the ratio, and thus enhances speed. Overdrives increase base speed which is, in turn, acted upon by the MWD.

@mswas

I created a sniper Maulus that can target enemies from 35k, which is out of range of most of the enemies I face.

Speed tanking makes no sense in PvE, especially since MWD’s don’t work in deadspace.

@mswas

Is there any benefit to nanoing the the structure to make it faster?

Yes. The Maulus is an excellent PvP EWar boat and staying out of range of your enemies will keep you alive long enough to warp out when you’re targeted.

@mswas

Will it inhance my speed significantly?

Depends on your skills.

@mswas

What are the best ways to make a Maulus faster, or should I even bother?

Polycarbons, an overdrive or two and/or a nanofiber internal or two, depending on how the math shakes out.
And no, unless you plan on PvP’ing, don’t nano it.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@FinnAgain

It is balanced. For a very, very basic nano setup, I’ve got to spend at least 200 mil. with that, you can buy, what, 40 fully fitted coercers? More?
It is fitting that such an expensive ship be useful.

I do not entirely buy into the “my ship costs more hence should not get beat by some combo of cheaper ships” notion.

My Absolution costs more to buy and fit than your Vaga. 1v1 the Abso has no chance versus your Vaga (well…you might have a hard time breaking my tank but I certainly will not touch you). On paper in most respects my Abso is the better ship. In practice not really. That is ok but illustrates my more expensive ship cannot necessarily expect to beat the “lesser” ship.

And along the same lines, how many ships does it take to catch my Rapier?
At least three fast tackling ships, as if you send only two, I’ll just web 'em and stay out of their range forever.

The difference is your Rapier is far less dangerous as a combat ship. What it gains in survivability it loses in ability to blast others. This is fine and makes sense. My CovOps is virtually uncatchable…but it is not going to kill anything much more dangerous than a Velator (frankly I do not even bother with weapons on my CovOps…better with run away mods and cloak and scan probes).

Balance in PvP does not mean that all/most other ships can 1v1 it.
Balance means that there is an effective ‘rock, paper, scissors’ method of countering it or destroying it.

I agree. However I do not think that there should be a very narrow choice of how to answer your setups. If my only reasonable answer is another nano ship the mechanics are out of line. Again take my Abso. It is a mean ship. Stellar tank and damn good pew pew ability. Your answer to that ship can take many, many forms. Speed tank, a wide variety of EW, better standard tank, more pew pew. The options are many both in fittings and ship choices compared to my choices in facing your Vaga which amounts to web, neut, nano.

And as I said, a single nano-ship is often a perfectly viable counter to any other nano-ship. If you don’t fit a competitive PvP fit, or don’t have a balanced PvP gang, you can’t compete with competitive PvP’ers. Which is fair.

And as I said that is the problem. That the answer to nano is nano. That when in my fitting screen I no longer puzzle over various setups. I plug in the nano setup because any other choice is distinctly less preferable.

Nano’d ships almost definitely have to get within standard heavy neut range, especially overheated neut range. At which point, they lose WMD and coast. Fast tackle can get on them, and lock them down. If your battleship doesn’t have a MWD fit, you’re not in a PvP fit. If it does, you can then catch the scrammed/webbed nanoship and slap your own web and scram on it while your fast tackle bugs out.

Nice on paper but not in practice unless the pilot is stupid. The nano ship is a get out of jail free card. If you get tagged as above escaping is still almost guaranteed if you are paying attention. You need the barest trickle of cap to warp out. You won’t go far but easily out of the battle. Once capped out you will still have your speed under you for a bit which is considerable. Coast out of range and warp.

This again goes to people committing to battle. Once upon a time hyper-stabbed ships were the way to do things. If things went bad…you left. CCP nerfed stabs to make you combat ineffective if you used them. They WANT people to put their ship on the line and not make escape a foregone conclusion. If we engage I should have a genuine shot at killing you as you do killing me.

Additionally, as an almost exclusively Amarr flying player, the notion of you MUST fit an MWD bothers me. It’s a racial drawback to their ships but the hugely cap dependent Amarr are particularly nerfed with an MWD on. Not to mention most of their ships struggle to just fit the Holy Trinity of mid slot mods (MWD, Web, Scram). Add they are generally pretty damn slow (Crusader excepted but then the Crusader cannot web and scram and go fast so is gimped).

The problem is, it’s very hard to actually do that. You can nerf overdrives, but that huts Vagas and inties, which are supposed to go very fast. Nerf nanofibers and you nerf everything, Vagas and inties included. Same with polycarbons. The only way I see to do it would be to add mass to all ‘non-nano’ ships, but that will mean that they can warp a smaller distance for the same amount of cap.

I think it was a Live Dev Blog (I’d have to look around) but CCP stated they will be nerfing nano while not touching the Vaga (mostly…might take a tiny ding but sounded very minor) or Inties. It seemed they wanted to make sure Inties are THE fastest things out there period…including the Vaga (of course there is some gray area for fittings so a newb in an inty may not catch a Vaga).

Honestly, I don’t see anything being broken. Nano ships are specialized, and generally take specialized tactics or ships to kill them. Much like most specialized ships.

Again, when the only thing you think of in the fitting screen is how to nano your ship and buff speed over all other considerations that is broken. Of course for the Vaga that makes sense. But for a Raven or whatever? Not so much.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@FinnAgain

Polycarbons, an overdrive or two and/or a nanofiber internal or two, depending on how the math shakes out.
And no, unless you plan on PvP’ing, don’t nano it.

I really would advise against rigging a T1 frig. Rigs are expensive, T1 frigs while having a definite utility and charm, do not really merit that kind of expense dropped on them.

Part of it is you will soon be moving on to other, better ships and the rigs once installed is an unrecoverable cost.

Most people do not bother rigging a ship till you get to battleships and most any T2 ship.

But of course do what you want.

[sturmhauke]

You people are making me want to dust off my account and play again. I never stopped paying, but I haven’t played in a long while, either. Last time was when the overheating mechanics were still in beta. I logged in a couple times after it went live, but didn’t really do much. One of my favorite dirty tricks was stuffing a Medium Shield Extender II onto a Rifter (I’m a Sebiestor, it’s what we do).

[FinnAgain]

You should definitely check it out again. Faction Warfare is turning out to be quite a good thing. People are, for the first time in a long while, undocking and fighting, in lowsec!

Unfortunately, a good bunch of them are noobs and/or bears. Faction chat is most often like an episode from the Keystone Cops, FC’s are often barely competent and any fleet you have will have to have concepts such as overview setup and brackets explained to them. I recently heard a story about an FC who warped his fleet in on a gate where a Mega and a Geddon were camping. He repeatedly told his fleet that the Mega was primary. He told them before he initiated gang warp. He told them while in gang warp. He told them when they hit the gate.

The Geddon died first.

If you can fight solo, or have a good corp to fight along side, FW is awesome.