Texas Hold'm Heads Up Hypothetical

The Game Room
1

I think the answer to this hypothetical is obvious, but for some reason I can’t seem to my hands around the answer.

Suppose there is a Heads Up match between two highly skilled poker players (think Ivey and Brunson). But, there is a twist, each player has an advantage over the other player:
Player A not only knows what his hole cards are, and he knows what Player B has in his hand as well.

Player B not only knows what his hole cards are, but he also knows what the flop and turn will be (but not the river).

What player has the bigger advantage? And would it make a difference if was no-limit, pot limit, or limit?

2

I would say player A has the bigger advantage. When you know your opponent’s hole cards, you can play the player with ease. It doesn’t matter what the flop turn or river bring, you will always know what kind of hand your opponent has and whether or not you can beat him. On an even deeper level, you’ll also gain valuable information about the way your opponent plays in certain situations.

Player B’s situation is advantageous for sure, but not nearly as much as player A. He knows what the flop and turn will bring, but he still won’t know with 100% accuracy whether or not he has the best hand.

I think the only difference the limit/pot limit/no limit will make is how soon the match will be over. A no limit match will end much quicker, IMHO.

3

A is at a much bigger advantage, especially if you have a decent amount of play involved (ie not some tournament where both sides have 5 bets so it’s just push/fold). The advantage is slightly lessened in limit and ampified in no limit because it’s easier to push someone off a marginal hand with NL.

If you know their cards, it doesn’t really matter if you know what’s coming up - if they get there, fold, and if they don’t, push them off a hand. You can size your bets perfectly to how much they could call with their hand strength when you have them beat, always catch bluffs, and almost always bluff them out.

With the other advantage, you might know you’ll hit a draw or something, but unless it’s the nut draw (and that situation doesn’t come up that often) you won’t even know for sure that you have the best hand - plus missing the river is a pretty important piece of information. You may know you’re going to hit the flush, and push against a set, only to find that he fills up on the river anyway.

With any sort of reasonable game structure, a player with advantage A can’t lose, but a player with advantage B could.

4

I’ll disagree with the first two posters… player B has the bigger advantage… The better hand preflop is often loses and in a game like this all the action would happen preflop… … you can have someone drawing dead by the turn… knowing what the flop and river would be is a big of an advantage to overcome… a skilled player would now when he had a 90% or better hand by the turn, regardless of the other players hole cards…

5

Player A can easily lose… I lose all the time when I call a hand I know I have beat and the other person is all in pre flop…

Player A would lose the first time his AA went up against two pair…

6

sorry about the triple post got distracted

and disagree… limit helps player A out by allowing them to see a few cards before having to commit their stack… player b knows what he is gonna do before player A ever sees a flop…

7

You’re assuming this plays out like some crappy tournament, which doesn’t have to be the case. Which is exactly what the caveat in my first sentence was about.

8

but it would… why would player b commit chips pre flop unless he knew he had a high percentage hand by the turn???

9

B may play like that, but if it’s some reasonably structured competition, A would still have a much stronger advantage.

Heads up in short stacked tournament situations play almost nothing like actual deep stacked poker play. If you can, try to find the Sky Sports series called like the Durr Million Dollar Challenge or something like that. That features real heads up play and will blow your mind.

We’d need the OP to specify more information about the scenario.

Edit: You know what? I just realized I’ve been reading this all wrong. I thought it was a question of “if you could have either one of these superpowers, which would you take?” when it’s actually about if one person has this power and the other has this power, who would win.

10

the more I think about it… the more I think that this could be a very interesting game… there could be some interesting strategy and bluffing involved…

but it still stand by my opinion that player B has the advantage… not an unbeatable one, but an advantage… and there is now way that player A is unbeatable, as had been suggested…

11

lol someone has had player A’s advantage… if you have never heard of him… google potripper…

12

Does each player know about the other player’s advantage? When player B looks at his hole cards, does he know that player A will also know what those cards are?

That brings up a new world of bluffing possibilities. Suppose player B looks at his cards and sees 6h-7h and, knowing the flop and turn, makes a big bet. B is representing that he’s going to make a big hand; maybe a straight, maybe a flush, or maybe he’s bluffing.

Player A can look at his own cards and see if he can make a better hand. If he has Ah-Kh, he calls the bet looking for hearts on the flop, to make a higher flush. If it’s 3-4-5, he’s screwed.

It wouldn’t be too hard to actually play this. Deal A’s hole cards face down, B’s face up, and deal four face-down cards to B. He can look at those cards and they’ll be turned over later to be the flop and the turn.

I think A does have the advantage. Before the flop, he has two secret cards and B has four. But B’s knowlege advantage is gone after the flop; he knows only one secret card and A still has two. For the last two rounds, B has no secrets at all.

Not a very interesting game, either. The betting rounds would be very lopsided. B would have to make his money before the flop. A would be the aggressor afterwards.

13

I think the big advantage that B has is that he knows when he will hit his sets on small pairs and his two pairs… turned sets and two pairs would be what decide the game… again i dont see much post flop action happening in this game… other than B trying to suck A in when he knows he will turn a big hand…

14

Yes, this is actually the foundation of my premise which I didn’t eloquently write in the OP. Both Players know of the other player “Super Power”

15

Deep stacks. Not a fast paced increasing blind structures, maybe 30-45 minutes. Plenty time to maneuver.

16

I think *probably *the answer is Player A for most scenarios, to one degree or another, but to give Player B his due…

– Tournaments will tend to favor B, particularly as the blind:stack ratio increases. When the blinds are high, most (or even all) of the important decisions will be made preflop (when B has a big advantage) or on the flop (when it’s close to even). Even with a rather deep-stacked tourney, I also prefer B’s chances at forcing an advantageous all-in, though I’m rather unsure about this; it would largely depend on…

– … the metagame, which would be fascinating. To what extent could B push A around before the turn, or even the flop? B can make it so expensive for A play his good hands (and he should be constantly jamming the pot for the first two rounds of betting), eventually A has to push back, or at least bluff catch. But it’s a risky, expensive proposition.

– B has a much easier time with hand selection. Anything that isn’t going to *look *threatening on the flop can just be ditched (after a pro forma stab at the pot, at least). A’s advantage in this regard is terribly muted: sure, he can be sure that his AQ is dominating B’s AT, but if B is jamming the pot he has to assume that having a Q kicker won’t be doing him any good.

– A might have to completely forswear raising preflop (I mean, facing a preflop 4-bet shove from B while holding AA, no matter what B has, A is probably forced to fold [excepting possible metagame considerations, but even then it’s extremely risky]). A would do much better in a pot limit game than no limit.

– A has got to get to the turn and river (relatively) cheaply, but if B knows what he’s doing that’s hardly ever going to happen; either he folds easily preflop and A grabs the blinds, or B forces the issue early and A has to decide whether to commit a lot of money before the board is revealed to him.
I don’t know, I’ve kinda talked myself into favoring B, even assuming a cash game with stacks of at least 100 BBs. I think B might well be a favorite in that game. I’d like to try this out. To do it online I think we’d need a referee – could do it live with just two people, however. Next time I visit my father maybe I can get him to indulge me for a couple of hours.

17

This is B’s best advantage… a skilled player knows exactly how he will play the hand and how many chips he will commit when only the blinds (and possibly antes) are at risk, allowing him to fold when it is least expensive…

A will have to call bets and then potentially fold when they miss or decide that they are beat because of aggression… A would be relying on luck and poor play…

For highly skilled players, as mentioned in the OP, I think the advantage is with B… especially when it come to the metagame aspect…

as skill level goes down though A gains an advantage because a less skilled player might commit more chips with a marginal hand like top pair…

IMO a fixed limit game is the only way that A gets a “fair” game…

it could be done through the message board if there were 2 players and a dealer who all had private messaging… the dealer could put out all the cards and send the appropriate info to each player in a PM and then the hand could be played out in a thread…

18

Are each of these players aware of the advantage the other player has ?

19

Yes, the “Superpowers” are known to each other.

And although I am far from a “highly skilled player” I do know my way around a poker table. If we could figure a way to do it online efficiently, I would be willing to be the dealer, or Player A, or Player B.

The more I read peoples answers, the more I am curious what the result would be.

20

I guess I’ll have to differ from the other pros, dangerous as that is. I can’t help but think that knowing four of your five eventual cards is a much bigger advantage than knowing the other player’s hole cards.

Ultimately, in head’s up play it comes down to game theory and talent. But player B has the bigger natural advantage unless I’m missing something.