akohl - “I just thought I would take advantage of my mood to share with all of you my appreciation for the friendship that is extended to us from people all over the world. At a time when so many raise a threatening hand against us this friendship must not be taken for granted.”
Amen
I’ve read this thread a few times now and don’t see where akohl instigated the attack some of you seem compelled to start.
Maybe I missed the part where akohl actually mentioned Palestine. I did get the part about people dying due to hatred. I’m pretty sure this does happen quite a bit. Sure, you can infer more if you like. But taking someone’s THANKYOU and twisting it out of context as an opportunity to “enlighten” the rest of us on your supreme intellect and “psychic” ability to know what akohl really meant…hmmm
I believe the comment,
“But then again, maybe their religion has uplifted them morally to the point that they can tell the difference between wanton slaughter and self defence” was in response to someone else’s opinion.
Anyway, akohl…I don’t know about the politicians and governments and etc. but WE people need to find a way to get along. Maybe politics is a dinosaur that needs to be put down. I can’t speak for the “Christians” that have felt the need to ostricize you here but as far as I’m concerned, you’re welcome and you needn’t worry about whether they speak for the masses. I assure you, they do NOT. Take care and
Maybe you should read the thread again t-keela, there was no “attacking” going on until the “wanton slaughter and self defence” comment, which I think let everyone know akohl’s stance in this matter.
Btw, I do not consider myself a Christian and my “attack” was a facetious reminder that Jews and Christians will help each other out all the time if it suits their worldly(or end-of-wordly) needs.
“Maybe I missed the part where akohl actually mentioned Palestine.”- thats kinda the point. Christian Palestinians can get wiped out as long as a shining Israeli state is sitting ready for the Apocalypse.
“Religious” reasons don’t immunize one from criticism for one’s actions and motives. The motives in this case are selfish, shallow, and not motivated by any love for Jews or Palestinians. They are, therefore, entirely worthy of condemnation.
Yes. That’s one of many reasons why I support Israel.
Horseshit. Even akohl has (belatedly) conceded that the Palestinians have legitimate grievances against Israel. And yet you launch into a blanket condemnation of them as lacking all morality and perspective. They’re people, Joe. There’s a lot of assholes among 'em, and Israel’s own behavior has undoubtedly contributed to the assholes gaining the upper hand. But that sort of rhetoric is sheer nonsense, and you should be ashamed for using it. How very Christian of you.
Strawman. Only the manner of defense is seriously debated, not the right to defense itself.
akohl - You’re welcome (if that is appropriate), and peace be with you, and on all the children of Israel.
To the rest of the board - I cannot, for the life of me, see why it is your business to pass judgement on who is or is not worthy of extending friendship to Israel. Shouldn’t that be up to the people of Israel to decide?
You seem to be very concerned that it is patronizing for Christians to reach out to Israel. How patronizing is it to say, in essence, the Jews are too stupid to know who their friends are? Or should be?
And as long as we are questioning each others’ motives, I will say that I hope all this is based on concern for Israel’s well being - and not on the desire that she have no friends at all.
As usual Greeny, your assumptions do not logically follow from the facts. Nothing in the statement indicates a “Jerusalem congregation” was involved, the group itself is foreign.
Palestinian Xtians are not going to support en masse or in part a self-described Christian Zionist organization.
Politically, Palestinian Christians are as opposed to Israeli occupation as Palestinian Muslims. The PLO and PA are not Muslim organizations, they began and remain secular with significant participation from the Palestinian Xtian community. Indeed, I know one of the ex-treasurers, a Palestinian Catholic. Hanan Ashraoui is a Xtian, as another example.
As most Palestinian Xtians (a) are not protestants and (b) those that are largely not of the bizarro world American fundie extraction, support of a Xtian Zionist organization which sees Israel as Biblical fulfillment, above all as Xtians have historically been serious property owners and suffer from Israeli expropriations.
Indeed, as a matter of personal anectdote, I have never met a Palestinian Xtian that did not bitterly bemoan the creation of Israel and the percieved losses of their (P Xtian) community. Never. Edward Said rather better encapsules how they feel. You are aware Ed Said, literary bete noire of Israel, is a Xtian are you not.
Not all the dirty little sand nigs, how did our own ever-so-well-informed Joe Cool put it, “a group of people with no sense of morality or perspective” are Muslims see. No sense of morality or perspective. Animals in other words. A goodly number are Xtian, esp. the overseas Palestinians. They have an easier time getting visas.
That would be the main one. The simple idea that Xtians support Jews. Or hate Jews. Or whatever. (I note that historically, the bitterest opposition to Jewish European immigration in the late 19th century came from the Christian community, whose newspaper, Philistine [Palestine] was violently opposed to such immigration. Not Muslims, Xtians.
Reduction of what is in the end a political argument into an eschatological, apocalyptic religious question is an utterly bad idea. It strikes me that anyone with more than a few neurons to rub together who bothers to reflect on this idiotic posturing can see that covering up secular political argument over land in yet more religious obfuscation only gets further in the way of a rational settlement to the problems.
That Shodany old boy is why it is someone’s business to judge the reason and content of “support” - because irrational religious support with apocalyptic overtones for a policy is the recipe for disaster, in a region which ain’t easy to work in. That and ignorance, e.g. by folks making comments w/o historical grounding (as you recently did) gets one’s head up one’s ass.
Of course, akohl, who believes in the settler project and the greater Israel rhetoric of Judea and Samaria, loves the idea of some folks who will blindly support such – sure they actually only want to end of the World and the miraculous conversion of the Jews as brought about by rebuilding the Temple but what the fuck, why let a little millenariun insanity get in the way?
I wanted to add my support for Twist’s observation in re inviting along Muslims. The silence, the phrasings here, everything says that akohl, Joey boy, etc see this as a religious dichotomy, of Xtian and Jew against Muslims. The Salafistes, aka the Islamists, the Islamist Fundamentalists have that very same vision. Welcome to Bin Laden thinking, what a brilliant idea to adopt it.
Most Palestinian Christians belong to the Greek Orthodox Church. Some are Catholics, I think, but only a very few are Protestants like Said.
I wonder what America’s right-wing super-Christians have to say about the plight of the Palestinian Christians (who are in the same boat as the Palestinian Muslims). If they’re of the Jack Chick variety, they probably dismiss the Palestinian Christians as deluded by Satan, since they’re Greek Orthodox, not fundie Protestants, so the hell with them.
**Um, the ICEJ isn’t a “denomination” as such. It’s just an interdenominational conglomeration (would the term “ad hoc” be correct?) with no particular theological agenda other than the restoration of Israel as a nation so that Jesus can come again. From About Us:
So, no, I don’t see any reason to assume that any part of those 10,000 spectators would have been either Palestinian Christians or Palestinian Moslems, other than perhaps a tiny percentage who came out of simple curiosity. But the event was almost certainly billed as exactly what it is–a specifically Christian, Jewish, and Israeli love-in. If I had been a Palestinian looking for something to do that evening, I wouldn’t have gone within a mile of the place, free ticket or not (see following).
I’d sure like to see a cite for the OP’s “10,000 non-Jews” attendance figure.
My understanding of the Covenant pageant is that it was held as part of their September 2002 Christian Celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem, and if the performance that the OP is referring to was the one that took place on September 26, then it was held in the International Convention Center of Jerusalem.
Would it be unforgiveably snide of me to point out that in theatrical parlance, they apparently “comped” the theater, meaning they gave out free tickets to make sure all the seats were filled?
So, anyway, I’d like to know where the OP got the “10,000” figure, no matter whether it’s for Jews or non-Jews.
I would also like to point out, for those who are having trouble with the way some of us are interpreting the motives of the ICEJ as being completely self-serving, that they should consider what’s going to happen to all this “Bless Israel” boosterism if (or “when”) according to the Pre-Mill eschatology, Jesus does come back? The whole point of that is so that He can gather all the True Believers up to heaven (the “Rapture”), nevermore to live on Earth, so as far as the ICEJ is concerned, when all their hard work handing out air conditioners and bed linens finally pays off and they find themselves flying bodily up to heaven, it’ll be “so long, Israel, and thanks for all the gefilte fish”.
Thus cheerfully abandoning the Israeli Jews to the Seven Years’ Great Tribulation, climaxed by Armageddon, held on their home turf.
Oh, sure. As far as I’m concerned, abbreviate all you like. The shorter the better.
(Incidentally, in the spirit of nitpickery, which I know you love, X is not the ancient abbreviation. [symbol]C[/symbol] is the ancient abbreviation. X is a modern one.)
Well, yes I could go to the trouble of getting the actual Greek character(*), rather than the close substitute, the derived latin character, but I don’t see the point.
(*: for those who don’t know it is included in windows character set in several places, among them the math symbols)
Perhaps a bit of a poor expression. So here is what I MEANT by it, if I didn’t express the idea clearly enough.
What I am saying is that the types of actions and statements made by Islamic enemies of Israel cannot be explained by the legitimate reasons they have for opposing the policies of the Israeli government. Those legitimate grievances are not the reasons for their actions and statements. Blind hatred, which is taught at a young age in the schools and via other media throughout the Arab world, does contribute to the kind of cruel attitudes that inspire terrorism. So its not the only reason for what’s going on in the Arab world today. But blind hatred is the decisive for the most extreme forms of cruelty that threaten us all as law abiding citiizens, Jews and non-Jews alike.
I intend to look at the other comments made in this thread and respond to them. But right now I just had time for this.
