DDG, I can’t help comparing your cynical attitude towards the International Christian Embassy with a father musing over the honourable intentions of a suitor towards his daughter. 
Wham bam thankyou Maam.
Well, Collounsbury, old sock old bean, I look forward to your explanation as to why the Palestinians have rejected the friendship and support of people whose irrational apocalyptic vision includes the end of Israel. You know, Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Syria, Iran, Iraq - people like that.
Just to clue in the puzzled, people are not using the English letter X to denominate Christians, but the Greek letter chi (×), which is the first letter of Christ (×ñéòôüó) in Greek, the language of the New Testament. (You wouldn’t believe how many fundies I’ve had to set straight on the topic, after they bitched about Xian being an attempt to "X’ out the name of Christ. They also didn’t know that the fish symbol came about as an anagram, created from the inital letters of the phrase, ÉÝòõó ×ñéòôüó, Èåïõ Õéïó, Óùôåñ, (Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior). which taken together as É×ÈÕÓ, means “fish” in Greek.
As for the OP, taking aid from people who expect your nation to be destroyed in the great battle that ends the world, with the surviving Jews either converting to Christianity or being cast into hell, doesn’t sound like a sensible alliance to me.
Really Shodan, you should try, if only for the novelty value, some reflection on the subject, before posting. A critique of these idjits support of Israel, and its nastiness (see gobear’s characterization, among others) versus the Palestinians are not connected, except in some juvenile ‘well he does it too’ sort of manner.
That aside, I’ve never considered it wise to follow the policy, because my opponent is an idiot and does idiotic things, that I too should model my behaviour and standards on his losing record. You, of course, may have different standards.
Second, I of course question your characterization of irrational apocolyptic vision for some named entities, e.g. Syria, Iraq. Stupid and hopeless? Yes, although it rather seems Syria is really only angling to get Golan back, Iraq, just posturing for highly rational if perhaps ultimately misguided attempts to shore up domestic support.
Jihad, Hamas – there is a point there. But then, the Palestinians are not a hive mind. But even taking that at face value, there is a difference. Ostensibly Islamic Jihad et al want an Islamic P state. For some segment of P society, this seems attractive and non-contradictory to their aims. For Xian(*) Ps and moderate Ps there may be, though, a direct analogy to Jewish Israelis (and other Israelis for that matter) accepting support of these ignorant morons, that is the two sets of ignorant morons (used here abusively to be sure, as plenty are not morons per se) both have visions of the world at odds with the other group’s best or better interests.
Certainly, I am of the sense that Xian Ps and secular Muslim Ps really don’t like the Salafiste extremists, but they also feel abandoned and up against a wall. Of course, similar rational no doubt runs through many an Israeli’s head in re the slobbering North American fundie morons’ support. They should not, however, be ‘pleased’ by it, and in both cases this irrational support makes it harder for a sane, rational resolution to be achieved.
[*: In re the Xian angle, of course to be even clearer, X is standing in for the greek character (chi as in the chi squared test). I’m just to lazy to get the code for actual chi very time I type it.]
Well, I wouldn’t necessarily agree. It could be, so long as you treated the alliance with sensible paranoia, and realized that is the sort of thing which could work against your better interestsin the long term. Or even the medium term.
Or even the short term. As I see it, and I could be wrong, the fundies are not interested in Israel’s viability as a state. They are more concerned that Israel play its prescripted part in their little pageant of apocalypse, and I don’t think it a farfetched scenario to imagine a pack of fundies hurrying along the Tribulation-to-come with an attack on al-Aqsa Mosque (so the Jews can rebuild the Temple, yada, yada, yada). That would most definitely put the cat among the pigeons.
In any event, American fundies need to keep their noses out of situations with subtleties beyond their comprehension. The fundies who are egging on the Israeli hawks to accelerate West Bank settlement to further their own loony eschatological mythology are harming real people and helping to further destabilize an already precarious situation.
I think I adequately explained the X standing for Chi (which I just know people are going to pronounce “CHEE” instead of the correct “rhymes with eye”)
Lib – Just curious what you intended by the original “Xlican” comment. Surely you didn’t intend it as shorthand for the Great God Ang?!?
No, you’re quite right, I can also easily imagine such.
Or the same morons in Africa, where mixed Muslim - Xian communities exist, preaching religious hatred. (Not to mention their kindred, the Salafist/Islamist shitheads doing the same thing, both usually clueless outsiders with nary a care in reality for the folks, only their blood drenched vision of the world.)
[quote
I think I adequately explained the X standing for Chi (which I just know people are going to pronounce “CHEE” instead of the correct “rhymes with eye”)[/QUOTE]
I was just pointless nattering, I confess.
Poly wrote:
No. I had suspected an ulterior motive in using the alleged abbreviation, with its ostensibility being the true convenience.
This wins some kind of Grand Prize for incomprehensible comments.
I have NO clue what you’re talking about.
Even after working with it for a while, all I can come up with is that you think that I think that the ICEJ just wants to boink the Jews, but is willing to marry them if that’s what it takes to get into their pants.
Major “huh?” here.
Not that it’s important in comparison with the Ladder Match going on between the X Force and the Forces of X.
Duck Duck Goose
I thought his point was clear. His analogy indicates his belief that you harbor unfounded and perhaps paranoid suspicions — much like a father concerned about the boy courting his daughter — toward the intentions of the Internation Christian Embassy.
That is interesting. I had just assumed that it was one of those internet abreviations the x representing the word cris, as in cris-cross instead of the first syllable in the word Christian.
Now I see there’s more to it.
As an orthodox Jew you might notice that I write the dame of the deity G-d, because I don’t want the fully spelled name to get erased or otherwise disgraced after it leaves my computer.
Hopefully, my next post will be on topic.
ICTHUS (ick-thoos)
English rendering of the Greek “fish anagram” described earlier
The chi (chai) for shortened form of “X-mas” (Christmas) been around a lot longer than the internet ;
just oddities & shorthand; akohl, nothing sinister in it
Actually some rabbis are of the opinion that hard drives, floppy disks, and monitors lack a certain permanence. The book Do They Keep Kosher On Mars? addresses this and many other aspects of halacha and the modern world. I’m still looking for an opinion on CD’s and DVD’s however. Since they store information physically rather than magnetically, would you need to hyphenate on them?
Back To The Debate-
Some people act like your friends because they are. Some people act like your friend because they want something from you. In the USA, we have plenty of fundy Christians who support Israel based entirely on its role in Aramageddon. There must be an Israel so all the Jews can gather there, convert to Christianity and the Apocalypse can begin.
Note that Jack Chick has a tract proclaiming that the Jews are the chosen people, under divine protection, and that all who rise up against them will be destroyed.
He also wrote and drew Where’s Rabbi Waxman? telling all us Jews that no matter how many good and moral we are, we all go to hell when we die. He closes with yet another rabid reminder that Jesus is the only way to salvation.
The International Christian Embassy is just another Chick-style-fundy-organisation. They’re not our friends. They just want a favor.
Sorry, folks, Xian is a place in China. Eastern terminus of the fabled Silk Road, home of the famous terracotta army. It won’t do as an abbreviation for “Christian.”
gobear, weren’t you aware that the Symbol font is enabled here at the SDMB? You can find out which keys make which Greek letters by checking your Character Map (under “Accessories” or “Accessories > System Tools” if you’re running Windows). Most of the keys are fairly intuitive, if you know the Greek alphabet.
For ikhthys (fish), type [symbol}icquV[/symbol} (using all square brackets, of course), and you get [symbol]icquV[/symbol]. In uppercase, that would be [symbol}ICQUS[/symbol}: [symbol]ICQUS[/symbol]
The whole anagrammatic phrase Iêsous Khristos Theou Huios Sôtêr in Symbol would be [symbol}IhsouV CristoV Qeou UioV Swthr[/symbol}: [symbol]IhsouV CristoV Qeou UioV Swthr[/symbol].
Whatever encoding you used for Greek, it didn’t work here, so use Symbol, which is fairly easy.
“Chai”? Nope, sorry, chai is tea.
As for “chee” being the incorrect pronunciation of [symbol]C[/symbol], and you’re supposed to rhyme it with “eye” — well you know the letter’s name in Greek sounds like “khee.”
I believe you are right about this. I have no problem erasing digitally. But someone might print one of my posts, although its highly unlikely…
First of all thanks to;
Joe_Cool, t-keela, Michie, Grienspace and Shodan for your kind words of support.
Yes, arguments in a discussion thread can be “kind”. Not just logical, correct, proven, and well-argued.
Michie,
Pamphlets?
No pamphlets thank you. But I would be happy to look at a website or recieve an email explaining your ideas, if you don’t feel comfortable discussing them in this thread.
Grienspace,
The Christians at the event were from all over the world. To my left a young couple from Zimbabwe and two my right two women one from Georgia, USA and the other from Wales, which I now understand is not really part of England!.
It was an international event, not a local one.
But who knows. Maybe there were Christian Arabs there.
Joseph Farah of www.worldnetdaily.com is a Christian, isn’t he?
t-keela,
Support for Israel is politically charged and my statement that morally uplifted people understand that the mideast conflict is a war between good and evil was bound to get people riled up, even though that wasn’t my purpose since I am really addressing pro-Israel Christains in this thread, except occasionally like just above I are advocate, hopelessly, the virtue of “kindness” in thread discussions.
Having said that I must say that this is one of the most civilized discussions on Israel I can remember having on sdmb.They usually eat me alive without salt and send me retreating with my tail between my legs by the 30th post!
There probably are some Christians that think as you’ve described. But I don’t believe that the ones at the event I mentioned do.
According to your thinking, they should be happy that we are being terrorized now, since our suffering is bringing the conflict to its climax and hastening the glorious end. But that’s not the case. They seem to empathize with us. One display in the foyer had pictures of teary-eyed children who’se parents were killed in terror attacks and a banner asking something like, “When will it end?”
Do these Christians lack faith because they question the fact that people have to suffer as part of the process of redemption by asking “How much longer?” which means, “Please stop this!”? Or do they display strong faith and confidence that they understand that G-d expects them to to support innocent victims instead of standing idly by?
I think its the latter.
minty green,
Your tirade against Joe is logical.
Nevertheless, I think he’s right. Palestinian society is on the whole sorely laking in morality. The Palestinians I have come in contact with seemed like decent enough people. But if so, they are sorely lacking in backbone if they have given so much street support for terrorism and tyranny and have so utterly failed to produce a loud voice of protest. And I disagree that Israel’s policies are strengthening the hands of the Palestinian bad guys. On the contrary, the constant pressure Israel puts on them and its pursuit of high-ranking terrorists should be providing windows of opportunities for alternative leadership. Israel opens the windows. But it can’t seem to get anyone to jump out, er… in, that is!
Duck Duck Goose,
I thought I heard the figure 14,000 announced over the PA system. So I figured 10,000 was a conservative estimate. But maybe I heard wrong. Maybe it was closer to 3-4 thousand. But it seemed like a lot more to me!
Well if I can’t win with logic, what am I supposed to win with? Ethnic hatred and exterminationism? Sorry, I just can’t compete with Joe_Cool on those counts.
Forgive me but I just want to observe that this is one mother of an oddball thread. Good night.
Now, I do. (I c+p’ed the Greek from Word).
In modern Greek, the letter may be sounded as “khee” but in my NT Greek class, Sr. Elizabeth taught us to say it as a hard K plus eye (in an Irish accent, no less), and you wouldn’t contradict a nun, would you??
But thanks for the heads up on Symbol.
(continuing the completely unnecessary Greek alphabet hijack, it’s a quick matter to change the text encoding in MSIE to Greek, and the Word c&p shows up correctly that way. But I have to remember to set it back. So, it worked, kinda, but symbol is definitely the way to go in the future.)