Thank you Christians, from an Israeli Jew

Great Debates
61

First of all, to those Christians who support Israel for all the right (and non-apocalyptic) reasons, I 'd like to say thanks for being honest to Jews.

Now, for those Christians who support Israel in order to bring about their own holy war, I have a few words:

YOU PEOPLE ARE SICK TO THE POINT OF PATHOLOGICAL! WHY DON’T YOU TELL THE TRUTH?

Why don’t you tell the Jews that in order for Jesus to return, not only do they all need to return to Israel and convert to Christianity, but that one-third of Jews must perish and those who refuse to accept Jesus the second time around will suffer eternal damnation (kinda like the first time around).

Time magazine had an article called “Is It Good for the Jews?” that appeared in its July 1 edition which focused on America’s belief in the End Times especially after 9/11. This link contains an abstract of the article:

http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1101020701-265421,00.html

Unfortunately, you’ll have to register for access in order to read the article. Ask your local library if they keep back editions of Time.

This article makes references to the magazine’s cover story and mentions the “Is It Good for the Jews?” article:

http://www.pubtheo.com/page.asp?PID=1086

The “Is It Good for the Jews?” article quotes Harvey Cox, a well-respected theologian at Harvard. He is someone that
I consider a true Christian friend of Israel. He works to build friendships and respect between all faiths in the Holy Land
and wants to see an end to the bloodshed and death.

To be blunt, in the gospel according to Fundamentalist Christians, Israel will still exist. Judaism and the Jews won’t. Israel will be a
Christian country as promised when God formed a new covenant with the Christians, his chosen people. These people haven’t changed their anti-Semetic ways. They are just expressing it in a nicer way. All that about blessing Jews, that’s BS.
If the Bible indeed told Christians to bless Jews, then why for centuries have they done nothing but spread lies about them?
Accusing them of killing their messiah, drinking the blood of Christian children and using it in making matzoh, and having
horns on their heads as if they were the embodiment of evil (believe it or not, there are people who still believe this).

Now, a few questions for you, akohl.

Ideally, support of Israel (the land) should entail support of Israel (the community). After all, the reason for Israel’s existence is to ensure that of the Jews. Should Jews accept the “support” and “friendship” of a group of people who see these as mutually exclusive? Can people who would chose Israel (the land) over Israel (the people) truly call themselves pro-Israel?
Think of it this way: The Book of Revelation says that in order for Jesus to return, Jews must have complete sovereignty
over all of Israel, an undivided Jerusalem, and have the Temple rebuilt. That means no Palestinian state with
East Jerusalem as its capital. What do you think the Christian Fundamentalists would prefer–no Palestinian state but lots
of Jewish victims of suicide bombings or a Palestinian state in turn for ending the violence? And who do you think
they are going to blame if Jesus is a no-show?

I honestly look forward to your answers. I have been wanting to ask these questions for some time now.

I agree with the poster who said the enemy of your enemy isn’t always your friend. Be careful to whom you give thanks to.
Neo-Nazi Christian Identity groups also hold the same apocalyptic vision of Israel (except in their version, WASP
Christians are the chosen ones). Should they also be thanked for their support?
~Florentine_Pogen

62

Thankyou Lib, I was beginning to think I was losing it. I would like to add however that I remain open to the idea that **DDG’s ** suspicions may be correct.

63

I apologize if I inadvertently butted into an ongoing “fight” between members. I was simply responding to what appeared to be the beginning of another Jew bashing thread. If y’all do this regularly then have fun.

I hate conflict and think those who seek it are “the problem”. I understand the need for an occasional rant and general disputes are necessary. But this never-ending bigotry and hatred that infests mankind is a disgrace.

The answer: I can only try my best to end it w/ myself and hope others do the same. If I knew “the answer” I’d be running to let ya’ know. Till then…

Peace

64

t-keela, I have no problems whatsoever with that position. My dander is raised by the people who post the screeds about how their side is completely correct and righteous and the other side is completely evil and delusional. I’m very much aware that real solutions are infinitely more complicated than such persons care to imagine.

65

“I was simply responding to what appeared to be the beginning of another Jew bashing thread. If y’all do this regularly then have fun.”

Uh not to start a fight but could you point to where you sniffed out the beginnings of Jew bashing. (I’ll stand corrected if you are in the “Jew=Israeli government” crowd or think disagreeing with a Jew constitutes Jew bashing)

66

Yes you can win arguments with logic. But that just means that what you say makes sense. It doesn’t mean you are right. In this case, even if your arguments well put, the facts on the ground reflect Joe_Cool’s despcription better than yours.

67

—Other than banal ignorance, why do you say that?—

Because this is indeed the attitude of many hard-line Israel supporters. If it’s banal ignorance to restate what I hear on late night evangelical programs, and what seems to be a pretty standard reading of Revelations (and very likely the original author’s meaning at least), sue me. But don’t pretend that every Christian thinks as you do, however admirable your particular take on things might be, or that there isn’t a very sizable and active Christian movement that believes exactly what I said, and poses a real quandry.
Or perhaps you haven’t been reading one of the top-selling series of all time (and perhaps one day THE top selling series of all time), the one whose new releases usually run neck and neck with Grisham for the best-seller lists?

68

Well then maybe the best way to avoid amphiboly is to say what you mean. There are some Christians who yadda-yadda…

69

Exterminate the brutes, eh akohl?

Ya know, for some reason, I get the feeling you and those fundamentalists are going to get on just fine.

70

As an evangelical chrsitian, I believe the Jews are God’s people.
So I support them (though not financially).
Has nothing to do with the end times.;j

71

Following up on Vanilla’s post. I grew up in the Evangelical Church. Part of a national “movement” but each church group was home-based.

My church group was about 15-20 families. We always considered Jews to be God’s chosen people, with a special covenant. Of course, we Christians were under a “New Covenant” but that didn’t negate God’s special relationship with Jews.

Our church had groups for the children: “Macabees” (sp?) for the boys and “handmaidens” for the girls. Jewish names were popular (we had an “Isaac” and an “Israel” as well as your Ruths, Davids, etc…).

We were always praying for peace in Israel. I never recall any prayers along the lines of “Gee, we hope Israel gets attacked so they will rise up and smite the enemy, thus paving the way for a Christian takeover, yadda yadda yadda.”

So, you’re welcome akohl. I think you will find a good measure of Christian support for Israel and the Jewish people who live there.

Maybe one of the reasons this support is criticized or viewed with suspicion is the fact that there is often contentiousness between Christians and secular Jews in the U.S. (“ACLU Jews trying to remove God from communities,” etc.). But I submit this attitude has little to do with the support evangelical Christians (at least from my experience) have for religious Jews and Israel.

72

Remember the Alamo Minty Green ?. Israel is under seige at the moment, so cut akohl some slack.

73

My suspicions are neither unfounded nor paranoid. It’s all right there on the ICEJ website.

I’ll repeat it, if you like.

http://www.icej.org/pages/home/aboutus.html

This is all Pre-Mill Fundie-Speak for the following theology, which can be blamed directly on Hal Lindsey’s Late Great Planet Earth.

http://www.flash.net/~venzor/chapter1israel.htm

And once those two conditions are fulfilled, you click on Next Page and you’re in “PROPHETIC SIGNS THAT WE ARE IN THE END TIMES IN 2000”.
http://www.flash.net/~venzor/chapter2signs.htm

And so now you can also see why the ICEJ suddenly sprang into being in 1980, when Israel declared Jerusalem the official Jewish capital city–it was glorious confirmation that Biblical prophecy was coming true, and it was time to help the Jews get Israel restored as a nation so the rest of the prophecies could be fulfilled.

74

Sure, I remember the Alamo, grienspace. I don’t, however, recall Sam Houston ever arguing that the Texians should “lay utter waste to all the hostile nations around them and be done with it once and for all.” Silly me, I just happen to think such sentiments are pretty screwed up and decidedly un-Christian.

75

Yes you’re right Minty, unChristian, but you are quoting ** Joe cool** not **akohl **. He does not represent the majoriy of Christians including fundies in this regard. Many of us Christians and non-Christians are quite sympathetic to Israeli Jews who no doubt check out every face on the bus they board or in the restaurant they enter.**akohl ** is on the front line in this war, he is a target, and as such his comments should be viewed in that regard.

76

Well he did endorse Joe_Cool’s comments, so I don’t think I’m too far off base in addressing them w/r/t akohl. I also have plenty of sympathy for the Israeli civilians who have been subjected to the suicide bombing campaign of the last two years. Hell, I even support all the IDF’s targeted strikes on terrorist leaders, plus a good bit of the invasion/incursion from a few months back. But all that’s a far cry from exterminationist or ethnic cleansing sentiment, which is disgusting no matter who it’s coming from.

77

Yes I think your right about this. And even though you seem to mean this as an insult, I am not ashamed of getting on fine with them. And arriving at this conclusion was part of my pupose for starting this thread.

By the way, I thing there has been more Fundamentalist Christian-bashing here than Jew-bashing.

And what is all this discussion about ethnic clensing?

Back to the main point. I was very happy to read the recent posts by divemaster and vanilla, since they describe what fundumentalist Christians actually believe. In other words, these posters are describing their beliefs and their religious culture as they themselves perceive it as opposed to extrapolating from texts describing what they are meant to believe.

Some of the descriptions of Christian faith based on analysis of sacred texts presented here make Christianity out to be an irrational geo-political agenda and a source of hostility and cruelty towards Jews. Obviously, these interpretations exist and history shows that they present a real danger.

At the same time, what really interests me, and this is a recent revelation for me, is that there are Christains who draw the opposite conclusions. Its easy for me to see how a simple reading of the Bible, with its focuss on the nation of Israel and G-ds special relationship with us can translate into support and identification with Israel.

I hope that with this thread, by giving Christians a chance to express themselve on this issue, has strengthened this positive trend.

78

akohl, do you think that the ICEJ want to see an israeli homeland that has Muslims living in it?

I want to see a safe and secure homeland for Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Sheik, Athiest, whatever your flavour.

At the moment that dosent exist because extremists on both sides are doing their best to destroy each other.

Israel is under siege, as is Palestine.

79

It is sad to see how a simple expression of gratitude can inspire such venom. To Akhol, please know that good Christians do pray for the Jewish people. Part of the Catholic service on Good Friday is a prayer for the Jewish people and that prayer does not call for their conversion. The ICE may have its own agenda, but if you believe in a loving God then you have to accept that God loves all people. It may be that God chose to reveal Himself in different ways to different cultures and that good Christians, Jews, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. all may expect salvation. We just don’t know for sure, so why not just live together in peace and let God sort out who was really right in His own time?

Although we may want to live in peace, there are times when self-defense is necessary. The attacks on September 11 were truly ghastly, but if you scale it down according to population, this is what Israel has been going though continuously throughout its history. We feel justifiably outraged at the murders at the WTC and want to bring these thugs to justice, why is it so difficult to sympathize with Israeli outrage at the terrorism that they live with all the time? Do the Palestinians have legitimate complaints? Absolutely! Does it justify terrorism? Absolutely not! The question of peace is up to the Palestinians. If they want peace, all they have to do is choose leaders that reject terrorism, recognize Israel’s right to exist, and let it be known they are ready to negotiate. The Palestinians have tried war, they have tried terror, why not give peace a chance?

Finally, to the posters that use the term “Xian”. I don’t see what you’re trying to do. I think people should be called what they want to be called, and I don’t think any Christian wants to be called an Xian. If you’re using the term Xian to merely save typing, that is one thing. But if your motivation is that you find Christianity so repugnant that you can’t bring yourself to type the proper word, that is another.

80

Amen!

But I was a bit uncomfortable with the way you put that “expect salvation” thing.

I suggest saying that all people who conduct their lives according to morality and decency will get their reward in this world and/or the next. When you say that G-d will sort out whose right and who’se wrong, you are affirming a belief in “I’m right. He’s wrong” but for practical reasons you are willing to forgoe an earthly resolution of the matter. Well, the problem with that is that some people, who are more ambitious and less practical will go out and try to fight the battles against the blameworthy infidels.

The Jewish view, as I understand it, holds that anyone, regardless of religion, can stand beofre G-d in judgment and recieve a reward for a life well lived. Of course the better your religion teaches you about how G-d wants you to live the better off you will be regarding your judgement and your reward.

But that’s not to say that we are judged primarily for our religious ideology. Believing that G-d loves all people is not the same as saying that you respect people for their choice of beliefs and honor them for their righteousness, even if they disagree with your religion’s viewpoint.

The latter is what I am saying about the Christians that I have seen. I know that they believe in some things which I consider erroneous. But I don’t think that G-d is primary looking at theological issues. But I believe he is looking at how people react and where they stand on 9/11 and on the middle East conflict.