gobear mentioned the possibility of a Christian Fundamentalist attacking the al-Aqsa mosque. In fact, this happened back in 1969:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1883472.stm
I’m sure someone out there could explain to me how Mr. Rohan had the best interests of Israel and her people when he did that.
Anyway, I’m still waiting on those responses, akohl!
~Florentine_Pogen
minty green, on the whole, you seem to be reaonsably intelligent and educated, and even though a few of your postings do not support that conclusion in my eyes (not to mention the flat out rudeness), I’ll continue on the assumption that it is, in fact, the case.
Now, as a reasonably intelligent individual, I’m certain that you are aware of the fact that a nation’s interests are not necessarily the same as those of an individual.
As an individual and a Christian, you’re right. I’d like to see everybody lay down their bombs, give each other a big hug, come to the knowledge of Jesus as savior, and live out their lives, happy happy joy joy ever after.
But the first and foremost responsibility of a nation is to defend its borders and its citizens from foreign aggression.
The nation of Israel is under attack by Palestinians (who are, in turn, encouraged, financed and equipped, if not trained, by Syria, Libya, probably others), and it needs to defend itself. Globalism, UN resolutions and the “court of world opinion” be damned. Its responsibility is to defend its citizens.
Given that it is under attack by an enemy who hides among the civilian population – or worse yet, IS the civilian population – a) It’s already been demonstrated that a negotiated peace will never come, because either i) Arafat does not WANT peace, so makes overtures but withdraws at the last second, or ii) Arafat is powerless to stop the killing; a figurehead with no real authority and at the mercy of the real hardliners at the helms of the various terrorist groups.
So what does that leave? Israel’s options are: b) Sit and do nothing until they are destroyed, or c) Fight until the attacks stop, either because the enemy sees the futility of continuing, or because they have ceased to be (admittedly an unfortunate result, but looking every day to be the only possible result). But sadly, they keep trying for option (a), while waiting for d) The great white head of whatever country is trying hardest for today’s photo op by meddling in the affairs of the Middle East stumbles across the magical key for peace that has eluded us all for the past 5000 years.
To recap, in case your attention span is as short as your wit:
Israel is being attacked.
Israel’s responsibility to repel the attacks outweighs the rest of the world’s desire to reach a nice, happy conclusion, due to the fact that Palestinians are blowing themselves up left and right, and taking Israeli civilians with them, all while their so-called leader gets his butt kissed by the entire rest of the world and collects humanitarian awards for doing absolutely nothing, and feigning an interest in peace - rather akin to Japan’s ambassador bargaining for peace at the same moment that their warplanes were bombing Pearl Harbor, except that Japan did have the guts to fight openly.
The Israeli government does not have an obligation to present my religious wishes to its attackers, so while I’d like to see a peaceful solution, the pragmatist in me demands action to put an end to the aggression, and if necessary, the aggressors.
Joe_Cool,
That still doesn’t answer the question where you stand as regards prophecy on The End Times and therein contained ‘prediction’ of destruction of Jews in Israel as a step towards the second coming. Or maybe you feel that the bible isn’t as clear on this one as in other cases… I think you know what I mean.
Sparc
Hmmn, I don’t recall the J-man saying anything about loving your neighbor unless national security is involved, in which case you should lay waste to your neighbor and be done with it once and for all. Praise Jesus, and exterminate the brutes.
Hence, your desire for a nice, happy extermination of the Palestinian people.
Hamas? Meet Joe_Cool. Joe_Cool, this is Hamas.
There, I think you guys are going to get along splendidly.
akohl,
I wasn’t the one with the pamphlets.
That was someone else.
I’m not pamphlets kind of person. 
God Bless You,
Michie
I’m wondering what the stated policy of these Christian groups will be if they manage to help Israel create a “peace” that is to their satisfaction-will they let Israel be the Jewish state it was created to be? Or will they use the opportunity to descend like a plague of evangelical locusts?
QUOTE]*Originally posted by yanx4ever *
It is sad to see how a simple expression of gratitude can inspire such venom.
[/quote]
I rather think it is sader to see such simplistic readings of what has gone on here.
Akohl’s ‘expression of gratitude’ is hardly a simple ‘expression of gratitude.’
It’s structuring a bit of propaganda.
Good Xians and Jews versus evil Arabs aka Muslims.
Pity that there are these silly little P Xians, wrong kind in general, but hey.
Yehaw.
I do sympathize with some portion of Israeli reaction against terrorism.
As I sympathize with the P’s outrage against expropriation of their lands for the infrastructure of settlement and occupation.
And generally sympathize with the middles in both communities caught between the extremists who are well-served by conflict.
Bullshit. Ignorant bullshit.
Expropriations, extensions of settlements. Even the present security fence engages in effective land siezures to enclose illegal settlements.
No, the P’s are the only folks who’ve gamed the system, and there is every rational reason for the populace to believe that simply being ready to negotiate is like bending over and greasing up, above all with the current Israeli administration.
Oslo accords, Madrid.
What the fuck sort absurd magical thinking is this?
(a) Xian is simply an abbreviation and a Xian one at that. Your ignorance on the matter notwithstanding.
(b) bring oneself to type it out? What is Satan involved?
Bloody irrationality.
As for defending citizens, well yes, there is such a responsibility to do such.
That of course is not a carte blanche, nor does it mean that every military action is in fact furthering that end. The rather sad history of Algeria, for example, rather reflects the bankruptcy of the exterminationist POV.
Oh, I was wrong. You appear to be a wacko. The only ones calling for extermination and slaughter are the poor, downtrodden Palestinians whom you defend so valiantly.
So are you saying that you think Israel should sit on their asses and get blown up? Obviously the attacks are not going to stop, and you just as obviously are against the concepts of self-defense and even national defense. So what alternative is there? Perhaps you think some day the Palestinians are going to realize “Gosh, maybe we shouldn’t do this! It isn’t nice!”
When a nation is attacked, it is obligated to defend its citizens. And since you’re so eager to invoke the “J-man”'s motivations, let’s see what I can find for you…
Oh, look at that! Numbers 21 says:
Looks like a nation’s armed response to attack, doesn’t it? Just what the doctor ordered.
But wait, there’s more:
That’s Joshua 10:5-7, where God sanctioned attacking those attacking Israel’s allies.
Joey, m’boy, I don’t give a damn about your Old Testament quotes. I mean, sure I could point out how Jesus established a new covenant and told his followers to love folks and turn the other cheek and all that stuff. But I’m an atheist, so I frankly don’t give a shit about your quotes, except to the extent that they demonstrate your beliefs are grounded in hatred and vengeance rather than Christian charity and love.
So instead, I’ll have to be satisfied by demonstrating that you are a liar. Observe:
Actually, all you’ve demonstrated is that you’re an idiot. Which seems to be par for the course with you.
I could waste more keystrokes explaining my position in more depth, but I think it’d be as productive as teaching calculus to a goat.
Collunsbury,
Your profane language has probably repelled viewers who might have had a lot to contribute to this thread. You’ve chased me out of a thread once before. Its really not the most honorable way to win an argument. Your insensitivity is an obstacle in the way of sdmb’s goal of promoting rational debate and fighting ignorance!
Florentine_Pogen,
Yes, you have raised some interesting points which require a response from me. I’m still thinking about it.
Joe, lets try to conclude leave the debate with misty in an amicable way and get back to this question.
I don’t see the contradiction. By “lay utter waste” he didn’t mean, “lets go slaughter innoccent civilians”. He meant, lets go to war and defeat the enemy in a resounding way, while taking care to keep unfortunate civilian casualties to a minimum.
Can I get a confirmation on that Joe?
What about my question Joe_Cool?
I repeat: where do you stand as regards prophecy on The End Times and therein contained ‘prediction’ of destruction of Jews in Israel as a step towards the second coming. Or maybe you feel that the bible isn’t as clear on this one as in other cases… I think you know what I mean.
Kindly answer, I think akhol and other people that your literal read of the bible condemns deserve to know what your position really is at the end of the day.
Sparc
dismissing hios points because you dont like his language is a cop out, plain and simple.
no, he meant the complete destruction of the Arab nations surrounding israel.
Wow, what a good answer, Joe_Cool. I hate to be the one to do this but everyone knows it’s coming anyway: I wish you fun as you stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and say “LALALALALA” over and over in a loud voice.
If the premises of a logical argument are correct, and if the logic is followed through accurately, then the person who wins the argument is correct (whether it is a moral, practical or whatever discussion, just as long as both sides of the argument are looking at the same page and using the same standards). I don’t need to tell you that in this thread we have seen a large number of false premises introduced into the argument.
With false premises it is possible to use logic to prove anything at all. However, as a few above have shown, it is painfully easy to spot the false premises in this thread, and with a little application it is possible to spot the false premises in virtually any argument. The established pattern for this kind of “living in a fantasy world” discussion, where shameless self-interests are dressed up as virtues, is that when the false premises are called, it’s time for the whining and moaning to begin–which I see is already under way.
Oh, I get it. “Lay utter waste” means . . . no, it means exactly what it says, and it’s still a disgustingly statement of extermination and expulsion. And even if you think it means something else, you refuse to explain what that is.
It’s been ever so nice debating with you, Joe.
And, Joe Cool, all you have demonstrated is that you cannot participate in a discussion without resorting to childish name calling. Which, correctly me if I’m wrong, belongs in the Pit?
Thanks, Guin, but my feelings are far from hurt. Consider the source, ya know? Joe’s just pissed 'cause I refuse to let him slide on his exterminationism.
Does that include the kids, too? Hint: Christians are supposed to act better than other people not worse. When you advocate genocide and indulge in childish fits of petulance, I gotta conclude that your Christianity is nothing but hollow show.
I myself believe that the end times will happen (no one knows when) and that the Anti-chrsit will make a 7 year treaty with Israel, letting them have sacrifices again.
Then, Jesus will return phsycially, and restore Israel, and all of Israel will be saved.
No, i don’t want them to go thru persecution, but my support of them has nothing to do with end times, whenever they may happen.
I dunno what Joe Cool thinks about this.
Vanilla, Jesus is not coming back, and the Left Behind books are not prophecies, just badly-written fiction. The Revelation of St. John, like the other early Christian apocalyptic writings, is an attack on pagan Rome for its persecution of the early church. It employs symbolism so that its threats of divine retribution against the emperor would not get the author in trouble.
Given that so many interpreters of St.John’s Revelation have tried to shoehorn events of their time into the book’s murky symbolism, any contemporary interpretations must also be suspect. C’mon, look at what you wrote. Can you really beleive that modern Judaism would revert to animal sacrifices? Can you believe that al-Aqsa Mosque could be destroyed and the Temple rebuilt without provoking a bloody Muslim crusade against Jews?
For the Left Behind chronology to come true would require that human nature change radically, that modern political institutions be completely different, that religious sensiblities be altered unrecognizably. Even if Nicolae Carpathia were real, and he set up the World Church of Carpathianism, and made people take the mark, do you really think that I, or any other freedom -loving American wouldn’t kick his ass? (Of course, Leon Fortunato, the False Prophet, might call down fire from the skies to burn us alive…) As you can tell, I’ve foreced myself to read the whole series, up to The Remnant, just so I can talk intelligently about them.
Your fundie End Times fantasies are just that: fantasies. They are never going to come true, any more than Fenris (the wolf, not the esteemed poster) will devour the sun, thus ushering in Ragnarok, the end times scenario of the Vikings.
What really gets me is that you people waste so much time arguing over the minutiae of a mythological event, but you neglect, as Joe_Cool does, Jesus’s commandments to love your neighbor as yourself, to turn the other cheek, to bless your enemy.
When I see the deceit employed by the fundies toward Israel, when I see the hate blazing forth from Christians like H4E and Joe_Cool, it only reinforces my view of fundamentalist Christians as deceptive, bigoted, and threatening.