Thanks so much, Hollywood....I get your message loud and clear.

You know, I thought I was being really restrained when I composed my rant without the use of invective…I guess I should have known better than to think I’d get through this without resorting to epithets, but here it goes:

You pathetic jackass.

Are you really trying to tell me that not only are all overweight people ugly, but that the “moral message” that the film is sending (i.e. that it’s A-ok to openly mock and ridicule people you perceive to less attractive than you) is a valid one?

Fuck you. And god forbid you ever find yourself in circumstances that cause you to be overweight, because your puny little mind is going to explode with righteous indignation when you discover just how unpleasant the world can be for “ugly” people.

OK this is either the product of some serious ignorance or serious trolling.

Regardless, I’m going to assign you some homework. Yeah, yeah, I know. You’ll have plenty of homework when you start high school in September, but this might do you some good.

Please fill both sides of the page. You have until the completion of puberty to finish this test. Ready? Begin.

  1. Look up the word “bifurcation” and discuss how it is relevant to your quote above.

  2. Compose an email to Sean “P. Diddy” Combs. Explain in detail why his attraction to the large-rumped J. Lo was severely erroneous.

  3. Because it is a “fact” that Camryn Manheim is ugly, discuss the various non-sexual methods she could have used to become pregnant.

Refer to the lyrics of “Bootylicious” by Destiny’s Child.

4a) Define bootylicious.

4b) Discuss why anyone would “shake [their] jelly at every chance” when clearly “jelly” is obviously less pretty, by your assertion.

4c) Assess the veracity of this statement: “I don’t think you’re ready for this jelly”.

Let me begin by saying I didn’t find the trailer at all funny. All of the jokes were fat jokes. As for there being some “moral message”, please. This is a Farrelly Brothers film. The words “message movie” do not apply to these filmmakers. Their shtick is to take some potentially offensive comedic subject and go way overboard with it. Sometimes it works. I don’t think it does here, but you cannot always judge a movie by it’s trailer.

I do have a slightly different take on the trailer, though. It is established early on in the trailer that Black sees fat women as ugly and thin ones as attractive. After the Anthony Robbins character enables him to see “inner beauty” as physical beauty, we get to see two views: the “real” version, which is what the other characters see, and what Black sees. So when we see inner beauty as thin, and inner ugliness as fat, this makes sense because this is how the Black character sees women. That is, inner beauty is translated into his perception of physical beauty, and inner ugliness is translated into his perception of ugly, which is fat. This tells us about the character’s perceptions, which are meant to be offensive.

However, once he falls for the Paltrow character, the main “joke” is that slender Paltrow becomes the but of the movies fat jokes. The juxtaposition is supposed to be funny, but this doesn’t change the fact that these are just a bunch of fat jokes made about a fat person. It’s still offensive.

I also have a slightly different take on “The Truth About Cats and Dogs”. I found the Jeanine Garofalo character more attractive than Uma Thurmund. But I think the photographer did also. The only reason he was even remotely interested in Uma was that he thought she was the smart, sweet, funny woman he talked to on the phone. I saw it as being about how the Jeanine Garofalo character had bought into the stereotypical image of beauty that she couldn’t see that she was every bit as attractive as Uma, and that this great guy thought so, too. None of the important characters except Jeanine think she’s not attractive. I thought the movie was more perceptive than it’s given credit for.

Last, on the subject of what people find physically attractive. I don’t think it is possible to entirely seperate physical beauty from inner beauty once you know someone. Part of the reason most people find the Garofalo character more physically attractive in “Cats and Dogs” is that she has a more attractive personality. We tend to see people we like as more physically attractive. I, however, am immune to this phenomenon. My fiancee is, in fact, the most strikingly beautiful woman who ever set foot on the planet Earth, and my saying so has nothing to do with my being head-over-heels in love with her.

In terms of pure physical attractiveness, anthropologists have identified two features of feminine beauty that seem to be universal to men of all cultures. Not necessarily to all men in any given culture, but as a general feature in every culture studied. The first is a symmetrical face. The second is a high hip to waist ratio. Neither of these have anything to do with weight, indeed in some cultures being heavy is considered more attractive (India for example). Weight, breast size, height, skin tone, hair color, texture, length; all of these are cultural standards of beauty.

Being thin happens to be one of the percieved standards of physical beauty in American culture, one that has been taken to extremes by Hollywood.

Alphagene, in the blues, “jelly” doesn’t refer to belly fat, it’s short for “jelly roll”, which refers to the, ahem, more private area of a woman’s body.

I’m of two minds about the OP. On the one hand, I agree that
Hollywood’s myopic idea that only stick-thin people can be sexy is indeed asinine. I am in no way a chubby chaser, and I tend to go for blond muscle men, but if John Goodman ever went gay, I’d be on him like a duck on a junebug. He is HOT!
Sexuality is all in the way you carry yourself, and not in the dimensions of your body. From what I understand, a lot of straight men tend to prefer women with a little extra “junk in the trunk.” Of the last four guys I’ve dated, two were were overweight, and they were both, by far, the best sex I’ve had.

On the other hand, I thought the “Shallow Hal” trailer was hilarious. The whole point is to show that this average, shallow guy magically sees women’s true selves, so that outwardly pretty women appear ugly to his eyes, and vice versa. What if, instead of fat, the Farrelly brothers had chosen acne to show inner ugliness? All the rosacea suffers would be outraged. In a visual medium, it’s impossible to show a sharp contrast between spiritual qualities, which the fat/thin divide is supposed to symbolize. And c’mon, it’s unfair to expect subtlety from the guys who introduced semen as a protein rinse for hair.

Y’know who I feel sorry for? The actresses who were cast in this film to exemplify “ugliness.” Maybe it’s because I’m particularly depressed anyway today (see my other Pit thread), but people like Edna Mae Oliver or Margaret Hamilton or any number of other performers—of either sex—have made a living at being the butt of visual jokes: the fat or scrawny or old or just-plain-ugly punch line. What a way to earn a living . . . I once read an interview with Edna Mae Oliver where she said that she’d always wanted to be a great beauty, and here she was earning a living by being ugly and having people laugh at her.

I’m gonna go crawl under my desk now and hum softly to myself . . .

Well if it was Bootylicious by Muddy Waters then I’d defer to the blues definition. Besides, I wan’t implying that jelly meant “belly fat”. The song is called Bootylicious. It’s not a vaginal thang. It’s a big round ass thing. As in when it shakes it looks like jelly. Thin people don’t have that kind of jelly.

Try to catch the video. You’ll understand.

For the sake of debate, I’m gonna try to defend the movie:

The way I saw the trailer, the movie is going to be about a shallow, appearance-oriented person who gets his just desserts and learns something in the process. He focuses on exterior appearances, then gets hypnotized or cursed or whatever, and sees only the “inner beauty”. He then dates exactly the type of woman he’s spent his entire life shunning. I’m sure the movie will end with a “message” about how he’s learned his lesson and loves his girlfriend for who she is, no matter what she looks like. And, I must admit, I don’t see how this message, no matter how clumsily delivered by a Hollywood hack, is a bad thing.

On to the subject of physical beauty: yes, fat is equated with ugly in our culture. Yes, it’s unfair. However, I’m not about to apologize for finding some people attractive and some unattractive. I’m attracted to women of just about all physical types, and I don’t feel I should have to feel bad because I find one woman more attrative than another.

I should note in closing that I myself am quite overweight and consider myself ugly as a mud fence. Doesn’t keep me from trying.

Having seen commercials for The Princess Diaries, I am most puzzled by the idea that the girl must shed her glasses and get a makeover because she suddenly discovers she’s royalty. As if the royal houses of Europe have such high standards for physical appearance. Heck, I thought one of the perks of being royalty was that you could be as ugly and geeky as you wanted!

Well, not having seen the “Bootylicious” video (memo to self: must watch more BET), I defer to your definition of “jelly.”

And to posters who call themselves “ugly”: knock that off this minute! EVERYbody, including the hunky and beautiful, magnifies their flaws and minimizes their assets. If you have a body of generous proportions, lose it or learn to
love it. The important thing is to see yourself as a sexual being, then others will too. Look at Camryn Mannheim and John Goodman. They’re both hefty and way hot. Why? Confidence in their sexuality!
Look at the gay “bear” subculture. They took what some see as deficiencies–big bellies and body hair–and made them sexually desirable qualities, so that bears and their fanciers make up a big segment of the gay population.

Don’t let anybody, including your own inner demons, tell you that you can’t be big and beautiful.

I just wanted to add to this thread that anyone (coughzrudedogcough) who thinks fat women can’t be hot is insane. Lesley Boone of NBC’s Ed is absolutely gorgeous. I’ve thought she was hot since she co-starred on Babes with Wendy Jo Sperber on Fox.

Plus my own wife, size 20 thankyouverymuch, is pretty goddamned hot too.

Fixed the link since I was here.

[Edited by UncleBeer on 07-31-2001 at 11:11 AM]

My point about it being by the Ferrelly brothers is that their movies are very juvenile humor.

Alphagene said:

What does the act of shtooping people who like both genders have to do with it? :wink:

On The Princess Diaries, I agree about the makeover. I thought she was pretty cute with the curls.

There was a Masterpiece Theatre a few years back which starred Helena Bonham Carter as the “homely” one. Yeesh.

In addition to thanking everyone for making some excellent points, I just wanted to note here that my beef is not so much with the varying definitions of beauty…we all have our opinions about what is attractive to us personally, and we are all in no way required to find everyone on the planet attractive for fear of being found un-PC.

No, the root of my discomfiture is the perception that it is socially acceptable to ridicule people based on their size. To continuously use them as the butt of a joke. The not-so-subtle message that this movie conveys that it’s acceptable to point your finger and laugh at someone because of how they look. I don’t like it, and I’m appalled that others in the theatre with me found nothing wrong with it. I can brush off the insensitive treatment of the topic by the Hollywood elite…I’m used to it (I don’t approve, but at least it’s not a surprise). My disappointment lies in how many people found the preview uproariously funny, when I sat there through the whole thing with a lead ball of fury in my stomach and bile in my throat.

That’s all. Thanks for listening.

Indeedie-do. However, the film had several scenes showing J being either ignored or scorned for not being the SoCal blonde icon. I thought it significant that the guy in the film was from the UK. He was the only man in the film who gave Janeane the time of day-the one newcomer to the Hollywood mindset of womanly beauty.Actually knowing about Sartre and Roland Barthes sure as hell set him apart from the blonde ooglers too.

Bingo.

I love a good joke as much as anyone, but unfortunately 99% of the jokes about people’s appearances are not good, they simply amount to laughing at the fact that someone is fat/bald/has acne, etc. Not funny, just crude and cruel. And lame.

I have heard a few appearance-related jokes over the years I thought were funny, though. One that pops to mind is Ric Duccoman, who used to be enormous, talking about throwing snowballs with his friends when he was a kid, and he had the advantage because the snowballs never actually hit him, they would simply go into orbit around him… THAT was funny, because it was clever. Yes, it was a joke about his size, but it wasn’t merely a “Gee, I’m so fat and disgusting” joke.

Stoid

1…so called “beautiful” people can play ugly very effectively - Cameron Diaz in “Being John Malkovich” jumps to mind - she was unrecognizable in the movie, and I was stunned when I read the credits.

2…I prefer “fat” women…not as fragile.

Nobody asked, just my opinion.

Phouchg

From the mouth of (our god) Sir Mix-A-Lot himself:

Damn straight. :slight_smile:

Now that I’ve calmed down, I understand what she was trying to say, but she still suggested that being pretty and being overweight are two mutually exclusive qualities. Like there can’t be a fat girl who is pretty.

Plus, I hate the entire “Why should skinny girls be unhappy; they’re skinny!” school of thought.

ZRUDEDOG13 you gotta watch your fuckin’ back, man. You are in the pit!
(Primal scream echoes out like Axl Rose: ** Welcome to the Pit, ZRUDEDOG… You’re gonna die!!!**

Cartooniverse and others: I don’t mean to pick a fight here, and I haven’t seen the preview in question, however, I think you unloaded a little bit too much on ZRUDEDOG. Also, I think it’s a little overindulgent for the others here to beat the dead horse with such vigor.

I’ll go through the post:

Wow. Ok maybe you guys didn’t come down too hard on him. I didn’t think they made blanket statements that big. Moving right along.

I think I see where he’s going with this. I think he means if you don’t like yourself, change yourself. If other people don’t like you because you’re fat, fuck them, that’s their problem. But don’t expect the world to bend over backwards to make you feel perfect about yourself. If you don’t agree with this, you are deluding yourself.

Fair enough.

More of the same. Note that I don’t think their is anything wrong or flawed about overweight people. Being significantly overweight is one of several indicators of an unhealthy lifestyle, though… as is being too skinny, which has been brought up earlier several times.

OK, on second thought, commence roasting.

Ya know, I think that one problem we have here is the down status of the People Pages. Otherwise, perhaps ZRUDEDOG might realize that he isn’t necessarily going to get the sympathy he craves. As a group, we are not exactly sylphlike. And I think I speak for my sturdy brothers and sisters when I say that I’m sick of being a good sport when jibed about my weight IRL and I sure as fuck am not going to take it from some asswipe online.