It sounds to me like you need to try a different church. High church Anglican (Episcopalian) usually have the rituals that can be comforting(because they are somewhat familiar to Catholics), but are also (usually) more welcoming to folks with (I have to say it) more open minds. This is a gross generalization, of course.
It may well be your geography–I don’t know where you are, but IMO, it sounds like you need to be in an urban area where there is more diversity of people and of thought.
Thank you. And thanks everyone. I really appreciate hearing people’s stories with this.
I did try an Episcopalian church - it was great. I liked everyone I met, was part of the LGBT outreach group, I even took communion there once, something that I have otherwise found impossible to do in a non-Catholic church.
And then I disappeared. I abandoned the chuch and the friends I’d made there. I’m not getting into all the reasons, but most had nothing to do with them - I had to move across town, for one thing. (I’m kind of a bastard who has a history of running away from people who care about me, for another. :wally )
And yet another reason, I know now, was that part of me was jeering at me for going the easy way. Catholic Lite, that’s the joke, right? It makes me angry now that I fell for that, so maybe I should try going back - but when I think about it, even now, something in me rebels. The Church is where I belong. Except I don’t and possibly I never did. Ain’t life grand?
Okay, atheists. This is where I ask you to step up too, because all of the above really has me thinking. Let me ask you this, if you’re reading this: Do any of you have to maintain your atheism in the face of a strong feeling of belief in God that you reject as irrational and possibly dangerous?
Asking that question makes me feel kind of gross, in a way I can’t explain, but there it is. I hope some are reading, because I’ve started enough threads this month.
Oh, yeah, here’s the funny part: I live in the NYC area. I could definitely find plenty of people to worship with in the city. But that’s not the disconnect I’m having, if you dig.
Man, this is scary to talk about. Listen, I didn’t even want to submit this thread - I wrote it and was about to discard it, which I do a lot, when I misclicked (one of the buttons on my laptop sticks occasionally) and submitted it. God at work? Or could it be…Saatan? (Maybe Satan’s younger, cuter brother, Stan).
When I say I tried to use my religion to “normalize” myself, I’m really not kidding. It’s gotten me into quite a situation. And come to think of it, it did last time, too, and it did when I was a Thelemite (oh yeah, baby) and it did when I was an Anglican. That’s what’s making me wonder if maybe, just maybe, more religion and mysticism, much as I believe it has value for many people, is not what I need…
This, for me, has been the toughest thing to overcome as a member of a “liberal” religious group. It’s even tougher than the doubts about whether there is/is not a deity, and if there is a deity, what does it want me to do.
In some ways, orthodox religious observance is easy. Yes, there can be a lot of physical work in the form of ritual observance. Everyday acts like eating, dressing, and sex tend to be hemmed round with lots of rules about how to do them - if I were an Orthodox or Chassidic Jew, I’d be fretting about who declared that my bran flakes are kosher*, or checking the fiber content on my clothes*, or ritually dunking myself on the appropriate occasions*. But to a great extent, orthodox religion teaches that as long as you perform these acts as prescribed, you’ll be favord by the deity. Orthodoxies tend not to be concerned with one’s motiviation to perform these acts. One gains merit whether the acts are performed automatically, or resentfully, or with a deep spritual consciousness of their purpose. In this view, it doesn’t matter if you believe that G-d wants you to do these things, or even if you believe in G-d at all, as long as you do these things in the manner declared correct by the authorities.
Liberal religious practice tends to de-emphasize the correctness of ritual observance in favor of emphasizing a sense of connection to the theological core of the religion. To an observer coming from an orthodox background, this can looks like “religion lite” because the outward signs (modes of dress, handling of food, etc.) aren’t there. But living within a liberal religious framework is hard work, and I think that mentally and spiritually, it can be much harder than orthodox observance. You can’t fall back on the notion that if you just perform the correct rituals, in the correct way, you’ll be OK. You’re forced to ask yourself why you do what you do, how does it support or detract from your faith, etc. I don’t care that Rabbi X says my cereal isn’t really kosher because Rabbi Y (who certified it) is, theologically, full of beans. I do care that the cereal contains nothing that is obviously treyf, and I care just as much that it was produced in a manner that didn’t cause harm to the entities involved in its production.
cthiax, it can be really hard to turn off, or learn to ignore, the voice in your head that dismisses Episcopalianism as “Catholicism Lite.” In my own religious observance, I found it helpful to study and understand why RJ rejects certain Orthodox belief and practice. This helped me be confident that I wasn’t simply trying to escape from chores that I didn’t want to do, but rather that I was pursuing a life that is good and worthy. Perhaps you could do some reading, or participate in study sessions, to explore this? Would you feel more confident in the validity of Episcopalian observance if you understood how its authorities came to their own understanding of what is correct and good?
*In the interests of full disclosure, I care that my breakfast cereal is kosher, but I don’t check to make sure that the certifying organization isn’t on some rebbe’s shitlist this month. I check fiber content on my clothes anyway, so it’s easy enough to look out for shatnes. For reasons we won’t go into here, the argument about whether or not I need to visit a mikveh is moot.
I think you may be on to something here. If you have a past behavior pattern of avoiding commitment or intimacy(if I can use that term in relation to church)–I think you need to examine why. I am not a therapist, but I do like Groucho Marx. One of his funniest dictums was “I wouldn’t want to be a member of any club that would have me.” Funny, but sad as well-and should provide food for thought.
IMO, and I am not a pastor or priest, it sounds like you might be in some sort of spiritual crisis. Is there any way you could go back and talk to the Episcopalian priest about this? I do know that many pastors welcome such visits. I am sorry you are troubled.
Is there any way you could explore this topic by reading? I have read The Ironic Christian’s Companion by Patrick Henry (not, not that Patrick Henry!) and also some books by Kathleen Norris. Henry is better than Norris, but both explore doubts, maintaining faith, is there a need for faith etc. Of the two, I would recommend Henry to you.
As to the bit about denying yourself this need–I can’t speak to that, because we are all different. Hermits and such denied the flesh to obtain a deeper understanding of the spirit. I would think that IF you are feeling a spiritual sense that to deny it would be difficult. I can’t say if it is wise or foolish to do so.
I wish you well. I have other issues with established religion–but I ahve no “problem” with a deity of some sort. Whatever you decide, please remember, baby steps–you are asking very hard, deep questions-and there may never be a satisfactory answer for you. I hope you find your way-whichever way you deem best.
I left the Catholic church at age 17 (after working my way up from choir member to altar server to lector) for reasons I won’t go into here. Mr. Kitty left the Baptist church some time in his early 30s after a serious car accident left him (temporarily) handicapped, bankrupt, and depressed. We are both on the pagan path, although slightly different versions of it, but identify to other people as agnostic (cuts down on the questions and threats of violence).
This is nothing compared to my mother, who has not only left the Catholic church after 60+ years (she was thisclose to becoming a nun when she was younger), but also led a mass exodus (pardon the pun) of long-time members when the church began closing parishes to cover their debts to the victims of the child molesting priests. Her interviews with local newspapers are the stuff of legends. She hasn’t been to church in… well, about a year now, and it stills bothers her. We bought her copies of Joseph Campbell’s books just to sort of comfort her, but she’s just so angry and empty and lost. It kills me to talk to her about it… she lost “her church” right around the same time her mother passed, and I really don’t think she’ll ever recover from it. But she just can’t comprehend my message to her, which is: she wasn’t abandoned by god. She was abandoned by a bunch of human beings who made piss-poor decisions. She can continue her relationship with god without the meddling of his followers. She always told me that god was bigger than the church, but it seems in the face of it she can’t believe it.
The priesthood is one of the reasons that through the years I have remained Catholic.
My belief in the Christian God and all that entails has never truly wavered. However at various times I’ve been somewhat disastisfied with the Catholic church, and once I came pretty close to leaving and becoming Methodist.
However ultimately I think the church is the right fit for me. And having a good priest in my life is a big part of that. Priests are human and thus fallible and all different. A good priest is one who you can talk to about anything, no matter what. And there are priests out there like that and you should perhaps try to seek one out.
Also the Church doesn’t really teach that “God meant you to be straight.” The Church doesn’t view homosexuality itself as sin, nor does it believe that one chooses to be homosexual or heterosexual.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, there are a number of people who want everyone else to tremble in fear of God. Why else would they pull the “You’re going to burn in hell!” card whenever they don’t agree with something?
In fact, that’s one of the things that driven me away from christianity. God is Love and he’ll send you straight to hell for using your dick for anything but making babies!
cthiax, mind if an old, Episcopalian outcast and rebel chimes in? One reason I’ve stayed Episcopalian over the years is, no matter how much I’ve strayed; no matter how badly I’ve screwed up my life, they’ve always taken me in and welcomed me home, even when I wasn’t sure they would.
I’m not Catholic; I never have been, and never could be, even when I was engaged to a Catholic man who I loved very dearly indeed. There are doctrinal issues, including Papal infallibilty, the role of women, among others which I simply cannot agree with. I don’t see my faith as “Catholic lite” or as a lesser form of Christianity, but as one which gets some things more right than other forms of Christianity. I understand what you mean about the power and the magic; as far as I’m concerned, I owe my life and sanity to that power and magic. I’ve also got some Wiccan friends who’ve given me a better vocabulary for discussing such things.
If you want to talk privately, my e-mail address is in my profile. I’ll say to you the same things those friends I mentioned and I said to each other many times in the early days of our friendship: “I’m not trying to convert you.” I am, however, interested in discussing theology and philosophy, and trying to sort things out with people. The Episcopal church worked out nicely for me, just as Wicca worked out nicely for my friends and Judaism is working out for Anne Neville. Believing, as I do, that we live in an infinite universe, it could be interesting finding out what works out for you.
Whatever you choose, good luck, and peace be with you!
CJ
Meanwhile, back to making sausage rolls for a choir party!
Despite what I said before, I do sympahtize. A couple years ago I spent a summer evening pontificating on how I don’t think God gives a shit about who you fuck and that how most ritual in meaningless. The whole point of religion is to get people to work be good people, except that religions get corrupted as well and thus just add to human misery.
I don’t believe in the anthropomoophic Christian depiction of God the father, and believe that god can’t be defined.
And now I don’t know where I was going with this. I guess to show I have some idea where you’re coming from.
First of all thank you for this. You’ve pinpointed exactly where I’m coming from. I certainly don’t think of Episcopalians as ‘lesser’ than Catholics when they’re not me, definitely not. I just personally feel like a phony, like I’m just kidding myself so I can ‘get away with’ my unorthodoxy.
I understand a little bit about the theology and philosophy behind Episcopalian thought, but I should learn more. That’s an excellent suggestion. I’ve been focusing all my energy on trying to re-educate myself into being Catholic, I didn’t even think of it.
I certainly didn’t miss that while I was hiding away in an RC church, some heavy stuff went down with the UK/American split on LGBT issues, the very kind of exciting movement I wish I could even imagine happening in the RCC. I want to say, if people like me leave, it will never change. But perhaps it won’t anyway, and maybe that’s all right. Her slowness to change is one of the things I’ve always appreciated about the church. I have to admit that it is all perfectly internally consistent. There’s a beauty and power in the scholarship and art that has been done for the RCC, and in its rituals, and history. Maybe it’s just not something I can have.
Oh yes, you might want to check out The Dance Of the Dissident Daughter by Sue Monk Kidd. It talks about a traditional woman’s exploration of the female aspects of God. It’s very good reading, and has inspired some very good discussions at my church’s book club.
I didn’t mean to slam the priesthood; I’ve heard of wonderful ones, and knew some in my childhood. I’ve just been discouraged lately, partly because of the reaction I got last time I did try to connect with one.
Believe me, I know what the Church thinks I should be doing. I tried that, and it didn’t work. I’ve tried over and over again in various ways to comply with what I used to believe God wanted of me. It’s never going to work. I am what I am, and loneliness for loving companionship or pretending to be something I am not will kill the best of me. I don’t think God wants that, if there is a God who cares what we do at all.
I’ve come a long way if I’m starting to doubt that, too. But perhaps that’s just a sign that trying to carve myself to fit the Church is poisoning my faith, not strengthing it.
It just occured to me that I could have been a real wiseass and used my sig in my post to Martin Hyde, but I’m glad I didn’t, because I appreciate that he took the time to give me an honest answer.
I’m more or less where cthiax and HPL are these days. I quit the Baptist church, gradually, years ago after having been in choir, after teaching kids, going to summer camps, etc. The reasons and circumstances are similar:
–too many “Christians” not acting like it
–too many threats of eternal damnation
–too many restrictions, rules, and a constant message of “You’re not good enough/You suck/You’re evil” etc.
–too much self-righteousness
–hypocrisy
–aggressive political agendas and a separate party line in practically every church, as far as I could tell
–in relation to the above, people strongly implying that if you didn’t vote for certain candidates or a certain party, you were sinning
–a slow realization, over the years, that many of the stories in the Bible could not possibly have happened in a literal sense. My mom, who’s nearly 80, is finally starting to get this as well. (I had explained to her just the other day the impossibilities of a literal Adam and Eve, Noah’s Ark and the animals, Jonah in the fish’s belly, and so forth, because she was starting to question such things.)
–another slow epiphany regarding Leviticus and the way people zero in on gays as deserving of condemnation but conveniently leave out every other punishable-by-death abomination listed in that chapter
–And more.
Nowadays I think I’m feeling like a Christian Agnostic…
It’s really hard to find yourself pretty much outside the religion you’ve belonged to your entire life, because you realize you don’t agree with or believe most of it. And part of it comes from a sheer revusion with a bunch of pricks(fudementalists, the relgious right) who have pissed you off so much that you loathe to have a religion in common with them.
Like I said there, I’ve found the only thing I believe is: “I believe there is a God, but God can’t be defined”. I have no clue what that makes me.
I did see your further posts, but want to reply to this one.
That’s not what I meant at all. I don’t believe in a God of judgement or condemnation in any way. What I meant was that while God is indeed love, Jesus is NOT your buddy. Sure, He’ll listen–but I prefer to attribute to man the failings of the world and its people. I don’t believe in God causing natural disasters, nor do I believe in God saving people in them. That kind of thing. I also believe that people make their own hells and that hell is indeed other people. Then again, I also believe in evil to a limited extent–very limited. As you can see, I am not only confused but also frustrated. I ahve talked to my associate pastor about this kind of thing, and frankly, got nowhere. “Just believe” is like telling an anorexic to just eat. :rolleyes:
If being Christian is a “constant call to consciousness” then what is all the other crap about? I can do that (sometimes)–what is the dying for sins and the immolating oneself on the altar of selflessness and all that? If Jesus forgives sins, then why the guilt, the shame of sin? Please don’t tell me the Garden story–please. I came to the church as a willing and open adult. I found some good there, but the price was too high. I wasn’t willing to give up my intelligence, my passion for truth, my idiosyncrasies to fit into a pre-made slot of “volunteer, mother, nurse, worker bee.” When I started to feel that the attitude was “what have you done for us lately” --I had to go. It wasn’t the only reason I left, but was in the mix.
Another example of my disgruntlement: I loathe most contemporary Christian music because to me it puts Christ on par with a celebrity–that and the language is so banal as to be meaningless. I hate that my church is going to rip out solid oak pews that are close to 50 years old to make worship more “open-so the choir can fill the apse better”–as if we are there to watch the choir perform. I hate that people clap in church after a choir or bell ringing. The music is an offering of worship–if God wants to applaud, that is his privilege.
Lots and lots irks me about church and church life. How there is no place for contemplation and discussion–but please serve on this committtee and take this Sunday school class. There is never time to think and wonder and explore–and god forbid you bring up doubts about faith or the divinity of Jesus. I attend (nominally) a very open, liberal, community church, affiliated with the United Church of Christ. Only Unitarians are more liberal around here. And they just seem wishy washy, frankly. How even today-women are still patronized, not listened to, and take a back seat (and my senior pastor IS a woman!). Sometimes I hate the Bible and the whole legacy of Christianity because of the shit about women in it.
Oh, I could go on and on–I probably need my own thread! I stopped going when my daughter was denied the opportunity to help at our church summer camp because she refused to be confirmed. She stated that didn’t think she was ready for such a big thing. The other kids, whom most went along with Confirmation because their parents made them, can help out. Because she was honest in her faith journey–she is excluded. F**k that. So much for brotherly love and acceptance etc. It’s all BS.
Sorry, cthiax for the hijack. Believe me, we may come from different sources of pain, but you are not alone. I dont’ seem to fit anywhere-this bugs me until I look up at the stars. Then I feel whole. Any natural setting–be it sleet, mud, gray days, and the ones seen as more attractive like early daffodils and perfect spring days make me whole and remind me that I am whole as well. Guess that makes me a what? Theist? Deist? Agnostic? Pagan? Wiccan? I dunno. There is something there, dammit–but I’m at a loss to tap into it.
I pretty much agree with you on this part, actually. My post above was my venting at “christians” who have done much to sour the whole idea of religion for me.
Though I differ because I’m not even sure how I regard Jesus anymore. I feel more that his purpose was a “Damnit, get back on track, people!” rather then the crucifixion(and sacrifice in general) having any real meaning. Because people won’t listen to you talk about morals unless have superpowers.
You make enormous sense and your words seem to be touching a lot of us.
My suggestion to you is that you listen intently to yourself. If someone else had posted this instead of you, what advice would you give?
Remember that you don’t have to decide once and for all this very moment. It’s okay to take some time just to admit to yourself that you are going through a period of uncertainty. Don’t be too hard on yourself for not knowing.
Take some time to think about the things that you do believe in and the principles you value.
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson.
