The parallel of “enlightened racism” must be the “anyone who says blacks and whites are even the slightest bit different, aside from melanin content, is a racist” philosophy.
by lucwarm
Does your rather astute observation control for things such as…oh, I dunno…socioeconomics?
Socioeconomics are definitely a factor but that doesn’t change the facts born out of statistics. Statistically speaking, black males 18 - 31 are more likely to commit violent crimes. We can look at lots of reasons for the phenomenon but they change the truth of thed matter. Black males commit a disporportionate number of violent crimes. Stating the truth is not racist.
Absolutely not. And I have little doubt that at least part of the reason why blacks commit more violent crimes is that they are are poorer than other folks in the US. But that don’t change the facts.
by lucwarm:
It distorts facts when you make statements like blacks commit (or are convicted for) more crimes than whites–as if race is the causative factor–when the causative factor is something else.
So I’m just automatically more likely to commit a violent crime just because I’m black? It doens’t matter what my individual morals, backround, or history is, you’re going to hold some numbers at me and tell me that I’m still more likely to commit a violent crime just because of my skin color?
I don’t know you personally. I wouldn’t make any assumptions about you. That doesn’t change facts of criminal activity. An insurance company will use such statistics against say, young people. Young people are statistically more prone to accidents. There are obvious reasons for this. Doesn’t change the truth, young drivers are prone to accidents. Black males are prone to crime. There are many reasons why this is true but the point is that it is true. Social and economic factors help explain the trend. They don’t invalidate the trend.
How do you know the causative factor is something else? Because if it weren’t, it would sound really, really bad?
(I’m not saying it is the causative factor, but you seem quite sure that it’s not)
Hank Fescue:
Why not? I’m a black male and you’ve got your numbers right there, so what do they tell you about me? The whole “black males” is made up of individuals like me, so what’s the difference between saying that black males are more prone to crime and and that I am more prone to crime?
A person’s youth makes him more prone to accidents because it’s physically less possible to have as much driving experience as it is possible for an older person to have. How does a person’s blackness make him more prone to crime than a white person?
The difference is I said “black males are prone to crime”. I never said “pizzabrat is prone to crime”. You know white males are prone to white collar collar. The statistics bear it out. Doesn’t bother me. It is the truth.
I don’t really know how or if a persons blackness makes him more or less prone to crime. I only know what I have said here. Black males are statistically prone to violent crime. Not that the reasons why aren’t important. just the point that the truth is not something to shun or view with disdain. If the truth is ugly then we need to do something about it, not label it racist so people are reluctant to even talk about it. That doesn’t help matters much now does it ?
Point one proved, now on to 2 and 3.
Yes point two. Blacks are not as smart as whites. Of course this is not true on such a broad scale as represented by the OP. But the OP does mention test scores. It is no secret that for whatever reasons, blacks in America are not getting the education that others are. If racism is the caused for this it still wouldn’t change the facts now would it ? “Blacks aren’t as educated as whites but that is because of racism so really blacks should be considered as smart even though they really aren’t”. The levels of education are not equal. Needs attention, not rationalized away.
Have you ever taken a statistics course? Statistics can only give you information about sample groups, not individuals. It would be racist to say “you’re black, so you’re 5 times more likely to commit a crime than Bob the white guy”. It is not racist to say “statistically, a disproportionate amount of crime is committed by black people”.
If the driving experience is the primary reason, then why would a 23 year old who just got his driver’s license have far lower rates than an 18 year old who’s had his license for 2 years? Or why would girls have different rates than guys?
The statistics DON’T SAY that a person’s blackness is why they would be more prone to crime. They just say that there are more black people committing disproportionate amount of crime, not that they commit disproportionate amount of crime because they’re black.
Speaking as an actuary, I’d like to address the meaning of the statistical statement. When we make auto insurance rates, we have to group drivers into classes large enough that each class will have a substantial number of accidents. That’s necessary so that our data has statistical significance. When we review accidents by age and sex, it turns out that young male drivers have more accidents. So, we charge young male drivers higher premiums.
This is the best we can do statistically, but it’s not perfect. A young male driver who seldom drives or drives with unusual care doesn’t deserve the higher charge. Some other young male drivers may deserve even more of a surcharge. We do the best we can. This is a practical business approach, not a moral statement. Ideally, we would be able to determine each individual’s propensity for accidents and charge him/her accordingly, but there’s just no way to accomplish that.
pizzabrat, you are a member of many groups. Black males have higher than average crime rates. Straight Dope posters probably have lower-than-average crime rates. Neither of these statements tells us anything about you as an individual.
Hank:
If you can’t see why the first sentence proves the second then you don’t even have a basic grasp of logic. If you’re saying that black males are more prone to crime and I am a black male than you’re saying that I’m prone to crime.
Monster104:
Er…why did you post this under my quote as if you’re disagreeing with me? My whole issue was the fact that lucwarm and hank were basically saying “blacks are more likely to commit a crime” instead of a more accurate “a disproportionate amount of crime is committed by black people”. The first proports to be able to predict future actions based on race what the latter simply reports past actions and classifies it according to race.
Fine. Life experience, then, as in learning responsiblity through witnessing events that force you to realize your own vunerability. An older person has had more time to witness such events than a younger person.
Because girls are different than guys. Two different sexes with different biology, hormones, and even mental makeup.
That is not true. Because x number of black males commit crimes out of the total of y black males does not implicate you personally. It reflects only a trend within the group of black males. A stat is a stat. Statistics like this rely on large numbers of people. It says nothing personally about you. Perhaps I phrased it poorly. Could you reccomend a less offensive way to relate the crime statitics of black males ?
by Kalt
Studies have shown that when crime statistics are controlled for socioeconomics and other factors, there no longer is a racial disparity,particularly among youth. In the presence of this information, it hard for me to swallow any assertions that one race is inherently more criminal than another.
Perhaps you phrased it poorly? That was the whole freakin’ point! A less offensive why to state it would to be to just read the statistics straight without trying to form conjectures: “Blacks are convicted of violent crimes at a higher rate than whites”.
Which illustrates my point. Why such concern for how something is said and so little attention to the actual problem. The attitude is “quit making it sound so bad”. It is so bad. You are so offended at my language. Are you offended at the crime rate of black males ?
Henk Fescue:
Because it’s the perception that’s the problem. You’re not the only one with the “scientifically validated” idea that “blacks are more prone to crime”. When that’s the view of the majority of the population, it doesn’t take much mental work to realize why blacks are convicted of more crimes than whites. And yes I’m offended by crime period, but I’m also offended that black crime is singled out and that I’m expected to share in the responsibility for it just because of my skin color (i.e. by being treated with extra caution because statistics prove that I’m more likely to be a criminal).