Pizzabrat , ahhhh, if black males are committing more crimes wouldn’t that explain the problem ? Are you saying that the stats are lies ? Are you saying that black males do not commit more crimes statistically than whites ?
And also, I would not use the stat as a reason to treat you with extra caution. The stat demonstrates a trend that is valuable information.
Hank Fescue:
Ahhh, the stats can only tell you who was convicted, not who commited something. People can be convicted of things they didn’t do and let off for things they did do. And explain what problem? If you’re against crime, what is the point of singling out black people as if stopping black crime will stop all crime? You think you’ve figured out the problem, blacks are more prone to crime, then what’s the solution?
So you do deny the statistics. Got a cite ? I’m just going by the numbers. If you have other credible numbers I would be interested.
I don’t have the solution but the statistics lend themselves to the need for one. If you believe that crime is not a problem amoung black males then I guess you aren’t interested in any solution or any attempt at one. If it isn’t a problem then why dedicate any resources to addressing it?
Hank Fescure:
hey!
::whistes::
I’m over here!
Ah! What’s the point if you aren’t even going to listen to a word I say? Ah well. I would like to know exacty whose post you’re responding to because it certainly doesn’t make sense in response to mine.
Anyway, can you please tell what’s the point of saying “how can we reduce crime amongst blacks” rather than saying “how can we reduce crime”?
Now we get to a real point. To state precisely, statistics document that black males are convicted of more violent crimes than white males. Why is that? There are several possible hypotheses:
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Black males are disproprtionately charged and convicted.
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Black males are biologically more prone to violent crime.
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Black males are more likely to be poor and poverty correlates with crime.
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Black males have some other sociological factor that contributes to the crime rate.
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Some combination of any of the above.
Youwiththeface provided strong evidence for the third hypothesis and I would suspect that option one is true to some degree. (Others can provide plenty of anectodal or even statistical evidence I suspect.) Number two has no evidenciary basis. Number four needs to be fleshed out.
Asking the question is not racist. Using such statistics to make a prejudgement of any individual, or assuming (incorrectly) that it automatically implies the second hypothesis would be.
Pizzabrat , Your post implied that you believe conviction rates do not reflect actual crime rates. I was asking for evidence of such. And I am listening. I think I see your angle but I need more than this debate to be convinced. A violent crime is a violent crime and I do have a hard time believing that white people are getting away with it while the black conviction rate soars. If you have evidence it might help me see your position more clearly.
The point is the OP. The OP claiming that the belief that blacks are prone to crime is racist. This gets into what DSeid mentions. If someone believes that blacks are prone to crime by inherent traits, that is definitely racist. If, as I suspect, other factors of social and economic position are to blame then perhaps it is not racist, but reality and something that needs to be on the table. But these facts are beside the point. Stating that blacks are statistically prone to crime is not, in itself, inherently racist.
Hank,
You again misstate what the data actually supports. Statitically they are prone to greater arrest and conviction rates. Indeed this may reflect a bias in who gets arrested and of how individuals are handled once in the system. Even I can quicly find some evidence of the disparity in how individuals are treated by the system for the same crime just by reading the link provided by youwiththeface - http://www.cjcj.org/jjic/myths_facts.php
So clearly once arrested young black males are treated and consequently convicted disproportionately to white youths.
And do you even need cites to acknowledge that racial profiling occurs regularly on the arrest side? I suppose I can dig and find the reports on its frequency and of case reports of many unfair arrests. But I think we can dispense with the need; it occurs to some significant degree.
I don’t really see the big deal in the distinction you try to draw. Certainly we can predict with reasonable confidence that, this year, American blacks will commit more violent crimes, per capita, than American whites. But if it helps you sleep at night, I hereby substitute the following for what I said earlier:
No we can’t predict that American blacks will commit more violent crimes than American whites. What we can predict is that more blacks will be arrested and convicted of violent crimes than whites. No matter how many times this distinction is pointed out, it’s meaning seems to be lost on the Enlightened Racist.
I’m not sure whom you are accusing of being an “Enlightened Racist,” but for what it’s worth, I understand the distinction you draw.
It’s probably worth some discussion, but let’s make sure I understand your position.
Is it your position that, in America, the true rates of commission of violent crime is equal as between blacks and whites? Or are you simply saying that there is insufficient evidence to conclude that the rate of commission of violent crime is higher among blacks?
**I thought I made it quite clear who I believe the Enlightened Racists are. Those who refuse to understand the distinction.
There is nothing to base any conclusion about the commission of vioilent crime by race. There is much evidence that blacks are arrested and convicted at a much higher rate that whites in all categories. As I have mentioned before ( and went into at great depth in the thread linked) the rate of drug use is just about equal for both whites and blacks. 15% of total drug users in the US are black, yet blacks account for 35% of all drug use arrests. 85% of those currently on death row in the military are black and 77% of those put on death row by the U S Government are black. I’d say that any evidence that is put forth using arrest and conviction rates is tainted by this bone deep, reflexive racism.
Ok, let’s assume that the various criminal justice systems in the US are biased towards arresting, prosecuting, and convicting blacks.
Will you concede that blacks are the victims of violent crime at a disproportionate rate?
For example, I did a quick google search and found the following chart of murder victims and race in 2001:
White 6,750
Black 6,446
Other 368
Unknown 188
Be sure to note, also, that the figures are further skewed than otherwise they might appear, since hispanics are ‘‘white’’ if they are convicted of perpetrating violent crimes.
To assert that blacks are picked on for your “every day” crimes may be fair. Yeah sure, the police might need someone to blame for the grocery store robbery, so they find a black man with a rap sheet a mile long and they pin it on him. That MIGHT happen.
But your assertion that black men are put on death row because of their race is absolutely absurd. Men can’t be sentenced to DEATH by some cops “picking on the black man.” There is usually DNA evidence or some other overwhelmingly convincing evidence that puts a man on death row. And let me remind you that the 12 people who put that man on death row are ALWAYS comprised of black people. I would wager a hefty sum that very few placed on death row in the last 20 years are innocent and have been put there because of race. Try again.
Uh, whatsthisallabout? Hate to break it to you, but you are wrong. Dead wrong. Some very well documented cases of minority men falsely convicted, including one very infamous in Chicago of a white jogger murdered … big profile case, they needed to blame someone … framed some poor black schmoes … only recently cleared. Look up some of the cases that have been overturned, read up on why there was a moratorium on executions in Illinios. Try again.
As to the question of violent victims and race. An interesting point. And true. I am curious as to what explains it. I tried to find some figure to see how much tracks with poverty alone and am unable to get great data yet. So far I have this: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_v.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
Not exactly clean data for the question. 20% fewer episodes/unit population of violent crime victimization among white compared to black, and slightly more episodes among those who live in households less than $50K/yr.
My suspicion is that “race” is merely a poor surrogate for economic status.* Middle class Blacks are probably as statistically unlikely to be involved in violent crime as middle class Whites and poor Whites as likely as poor Blacks. But I do not conclusive evidence of such. I am sure that there are treatsises written on the role of single parent households, of overcrowding in urban ghettos as opposed to rural poor, and so on. I don’t know.
*I also get frustrated blaming the poor test results of urban poor Blacks on unequal schooling. Its more likely that school performance also tracks with your economic base. What a surprise that the upper middle class kid down the block with involved parents who obsess over his school performance and give him every possible support is now going to Brown, while the kid I know from a poor environment with a stressed single parent is having a hard time with grades … oh, btw, in this case the first kid happens to be Black, the second White, as if that mattered.
Light-skinned Hispanics aren’t white? Dark-skinned Hispanics are sorted into the “white” bin? That’s news to me. For the record “Hispanic” isn’t a race.
Where do I start? I know! How about with my last post:
So, you’re convinced that 12% of the population is responsible for 85% of federal murders. I suggest you try again whatsall. Perhaps you should start with this previously posted link and try to follow the discussion more closely.
I dunno. I just quoted you so you wouldn’t think I was ignoring you.
http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20000221deathpenalty3.asp
Illinois WRONGFUL CAPITAL MURDER CONVICTIONS
http://sun.soci.niu.edu/~critcrim/wrong/tribpros11.html
New standard for race on death-row juries
You owe me a hefty sum. try again.
It’s an interesting question, one worthy of debate. However, it’s worth keeping in mind the reason I brought up the issue of victim’s races. See, there are folks who won’t accept that blacks commit a disproportionate amount of violent crime in the US. They reject statistics of black convictions as the product of a biased system.
However, it’s much more difficult to reject victim statistics. Why would anyone over-report the number of black violent crime victims? If anything, you would expect such crimes to be underreported.
Ok, so let’s ask the next question: Who’s murdering all these black people? Generally speaking, there’s only one reasonable answer.
And by the way, I certainly wouldn’t be surprised to learn that blacks are sentenced more severely, on average. As I said before, there’s a lot of racism out there.