You know that quote from Jerry Maguire, “It’s not show friends, it’s show business”? That applies here. There is so much backbiting and sour grapes on this show, anyone who is inordinately successful is accused of all manner of malfeasance. It happened to Amy last year, and Jenn is this year’s Amy. Isn’t it possible that Kevin and Ivana are just jealous? That the animosity is coming from that rather than 100% from Jenn’s actions?
I think making “enemies” is the nature of the beast in this game, esp. if a person is more interested in winning than in being popular, and double-especially if that person is a woman because of all the cattiness. That’s what we all liked about Jenn at the beginning-- she didn’t follow the flock just to go along, stood up for Stacie, and thought her own thoughts. It’s what I still like about her.
Possibly. Trump does not tend to look kindly on altruistic, self-sacrificing behavior. Witness Bradford for proof. Also, let’s remember that Levi’s guy was NOT praising Jenn for inventing the wheel (pun intended), he was praising her for being confident and secure. That’s all about carriage and delivery, nothing whatsoever about the product per se. For that kind of compliment, the only proper response is “thank you.” What was she supposed to do, say, “Thanks for the compliment, but IVANA thought of the wheel!!!” That would have seemed contrived and smarmy, IMO. I could see her saying that if she was inaccurately being credited with the wheel, but she wasn’t, so why would she say anything about that?
Really, I’m surprised so many people are taken in my Kevin and Ivana’s childish whining. There was no real instance of Jenn taking credit for their work. They may have been jealous that Jenn was praised when they worked so hard, but I fail to see how that was Jenn’s fault. What she was praised for was valid and there was really no opportunity for her to speak to what the other team members did. Don’t believe the hype. Ivana is a whinger from the word GO, and Kevin, while a decent guy, is clearly envious of Jenn’s success. Boo hoo.
The question, however, was “When has a little ruthlessness ever proved a stumbling block in business?” The point is that ruthlessness CAN INDEED backfire tremendously.
We can debate whether ruthlessness is the right approach for the Apprentice wannabes or not, but it’s rather naive to say that ruthlessness isn’t a stumbling block in business. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it’s a fatal mistake.
Nonsense. One mark of good leadership is the ability to give people due credit for their ideas. Sure, this would have made Ivana look good, but so what? Thanks to the cameras and Trump’s henchpeople, he would quite likely know about Ivana’s brainstorms anyway.
If you take credit for someone else’s work – even implicitly – you can expect this to backfire badly.
Well, of course. I said a little. Obviously any mondo-Machivellian ploys are just as dangerous as they are potentially effective. But I don’t think we’re placing Jenn on a level of Machiavelli yet, are we?
Let’s see, she refused to be sidelined on a task and won praise for her overall poise and professional presentation. Aah! Call the Ethics Board!
And I still say she helped Kevin and Ivana during that pitch. They’re too intimidated by her to see it.
“Call the Ethics Board”? If such a board existed, then YES, Jenn should be forced to face them.
Look, if her intent was to lend poise to the presentation, she could have done that without making it sound as though she was taking credit for someone else’s work. I’ve done it many times myself. In fact, I remember one time wherein I went to great lengths to acknowledge other people’s contributions. Instead of receiving criticism by the boss, I was commended for giving a strong presentation.
Did Jenn rescue the presentation with her tactic? Maybe, maybe not. Either way, she has demonstrated that she is not good management material.
I was under the impression that Andy said he wasn’t going to let Kelly intimidate him because he also wanted to be team leader. Then it looked like Jen drew a name out of a hat, and it was Kelly’s.
For goodness sake, did you even read what she said? I transcribed it for your edification. She never took credit for making the wheel. She described what the purpose of the wheel and catalog, and she said “we,” since she was part of the team and did contribute to the layout, photography, and design of the rest of the piece. She never said “I” at any point in the presentation. Levi’s guy did not praise her for her work on the wheel; he only praised her for her poise and confidence. Please show me any instance where she claimed one iota of exclusive credit for the wheel.
Also, let me point out that ruthlessness in business in general has little or nothing to do with the function of ruthlessness on The Apprentice. In business, you may have to work with the same people for years or even decades; the show is over in a few short weeks. I highly doubt that Kevin and Ivana could successfully frag Jenn in the board room because Jenn is more competent and self-assured than both of them put together and I think she could single-handedly discredit both of them.
I think it’s safe to say that Jenn DID save the presentation with her interjections because it was she who was singled out as being the best presenter. From what I saw, K & I were both a bit frenzied and overheated; Jenn, as usual, was cool and smooth. Instead of being glad she helped, K & I could only seethe with jealousy. It’s pretty lame.
I also have to reiterate that there was no opportunity for Jenn to mention Kevin or Ivana’s work. Levi’s guy said she was “confident and balanced.” She said thank you. I don’t think the proper response to that is to say, “Well, thanks for saying I’m confident and balanced, but Ivana created the wheel.” She was not being praised for material she produced, only for her overall carriage, which owed nothing to K or I. It was not the time to interject about other aspects of the task. Now, if they lost and she was in the board room claiming credit, that would be ethically wrong. What she did was not.
Which is EXACTLY why I said that one should not take credit explicitly or implicitly. By answering the question WHEN she did, and the WAY she did, she made it sound as though she’s the one who came up with this idea.
You say that Jenn contributed, but that’s irrelevant. The Levi’s guy didn’t ask, “What did you contribute?” No, he asked, “How did you come up with this idea?” Jenn’s answer made it sound as though SHE was the one who had this brainstorm, and the rest of her team certainly took it that way.
That type of ruthlessness is simply inexcusable. Yes, it’s true that the circumstances of this show are different from those in the real world. However, if you want to show someone that you are good leadership material, then you had better exhibit the right qualities on the show as well. None of this, “Let’s screw someone else over; after all, it’s just a TV show!” crap.
I profoundly disagree. She’s demonstrated more consistent brains and competence than any of these turnips. Banish her from the fold, if you like, for not trumpeting others’ praises in the most selfless manner possible. But as far as the kind of shrewdness Trump is likely looking for, Jenn is about as close to management material as you’ll get.
She absolutely did not. I don’t see that anywhere in what she said, and I was looking for it based on the previews and spoilers I read. Jenn stated the purpose of the wheel and the catalogue and the rationale behind it, in a “this is what we wanted to accomplish” way. Ivana came up with the wheel; she did NOT come up with the entire catalog, which is what was being discussed, so yes, it is relevant that Jenn contributed to the overall product, because she could legitimately answer that question with “we did this.” I didn’t see any attempt on her part to take personal credit. It is possible that she wanted to prevent Ivana from saying, “The wheel was all my idea!” but Ivana did get her chance to speak, and she also asserted that they all collaborated on it.
I am totally failing to see what you saw that was inexcusable. I watched the same show that you did AND I rewatched the scene in question to check my perspective for accuracy, and I don’t get what Jenn did that is so horrendous as to evoke this reaction from you.
Ask yourself this-- what would Trump have done in Jenn’s shoes? Do you think he would have interrupted a compliment from an important person to give credit to other people, even if the compliment was about his personal charisma and not about his performance on the task? No way in hell. I don’t think he’s looking for some paragon of personal virtue. I think he’s looking for a go-getter with shrewdness and discretion. Jenn has those qualities.
Also, could we please lay off the hyperbole of “Jenn screwed Ivana over”? She did not. They won the task. Ivana got to meet Billy Joel. She didn’t get heaped with praise for her wheel, nor did she get strokes for her presentation (which was uneven, good in some places, frenetic in others), but she certainly didn’t get hurt.
You might not, but I did, her teammates did, and a whole bunch of SDMBers did. This goes to show that people can “say” something without actually saying it. It doesn’t take much effort to see that jumping in to answer the question “How did you come up with this idea?” makes it seem as though YOU were the one who is responsible for that brainstorm.
Now, it is possible that this was not deliberate on her part. If so, then she is still to blame. An astute leader knows better.
Naturally. That’s because it’s not necessary to interrupt! A capable leader can always wait until the compliment has been paid, and then give credit where credit is due.
You’re acting as though the only options at that point were to tacitly take credit, or to rudely interrupt and say, “Wait a minute! This was Ivana’s idea.” That simply isn’t true. A good leader knows how to correct misperceptions with tact, sensitivity, timing and consummate diplomacy. Jenn showed none of those qualities.
I just do not see it that way. Jenn could just as likely jumped in because she hadn’t said anything yet and didn’t want to float through the presentation having said nothing, because that would be used against her in the board room. Isn’t it just as likely that Jenn’s teammates (just Kevin and Ivana; I note that Kelly said nothing about it) have a grudge against her? They were aggravated when Chris exempted her from the board room, something which she had no input in nor control over. So jealous and disgruntled were K & I that they started calling her a mesmeric fembot plastic conniver behind her back. They clearly have an issue with her success and are looking for reasons to dislike her and attribute those negative qualities to her. The fact that some SDMBer are buying their line of bull doesn’t make them right.
Huh? Isn’t it possible that she simply thought she could explain the catalog’s rationale better than Mr. Sweaty or Ms. Frenetic? And I would point out that she was CORRECT, based on Levi’s guy’s response to her.
No, I’m not acting that way. I never implied that Jenn would have to be rude to give others credit. I am saying (over and over, though you refuse to consider my point), that Jenn WAS NOT COMPLIMENTED FOR HER WORK ON THE CATALOGUE. She was complimented for being balanced and confident. That’s all. If she were being praised for something she didn’t do, then she most definitely should have allocated credit where it belong. She was not; she was praised for her innate qualities, which are most definitely not due to Kevin or Ivana.
We may have to agree to disagree. You think Jenn’s interjection during the presentation was purely self-serving. I see it as an attempt to improve the presentation, which you cannot deny she did, based on Levi’s guy’s reaction. I also see her “thank you” as the only proper response to the praise, whereas you think she should have endeavored to change the subject to who should get credit for the wheel. I’m not sure you can see it my way, and I know I can’t see it yours…
I think it’s possible that the question that LevisGuy answered was ambiguous. Trump asked him, “who did the best job here?” and he said Jenn. Now whether you think Jenn is a credit hog or not kind of depends on what you understand LeviGuy’s answer to be referring to. If you think he meant “Jenn did the best job on the task overall,” then yes, Jenn looks like a credit hog. If you think he meant “Jenn did the best job of presenting their results,” then, no, she got credit for no more than what she did. Because us fangirls and -boys look at the totality of the task, most of us (and I include myself here) interpreted him as saying the former – the lovely and talented Rubystreak (whose perspicacity I admire tremendously) seems to be taking it as the latter.
Thus we’re actually talking about apples and oranges here, and that might be why people are getting so frustrated.
For pity’s sake. Is it truly so hard to imagine how answering the question “How did you come up with this idea?” will give people the impression that this was your own brainchild? If Jenn knew this, then her failure to give proper credit was inexcusable. If she didn’t, then her leadership qualities are lackluster at best.
Green Bean gave a fairly lengthy discussion of how an effective leader can give proper credit without looking weak or ineffectual (and without interrupting, as per Rubystreak’s scenario). twickster, my main beef isn’t with respect to the comments from the Levi’s guy. It has mostly to do with Jenn’s behavior, period. As far as I’m concerned, the specific interpretation of the Levi’s guy’s remarks is not endemic to the issue at hand.
twickster, I think your assessment of the situation is correct. I would bring up one point in respose: the Levi’s guy had no idea who did what on this task, as he didn’t supervise the production of the catalogue, so he could only be assessing their performance in the presentation. That is partially how I arrived at my opinion about Jenn’s behavior.
And again, you miss the point. As monstro, Green Bean and I have consistently pointed out, she could have saved the presentation without making it appear as though the Wheel O’Jeans was the product of her fertile imagination. End of story.
Wasn’t the question directly about the wheel? I thought the Levis guy had asked somethinkg like “How did you come up with the idea for the wheel?”
At which point Jenn inserted herself.
I thing that Kevin, as PM, probably should have asserted himself after that question and said ,“That was Ivana’s idea. Ivana?”
It would have been a good way to properly distribute credit without Ivana having to jump in and say “me, me, me.”
Wasn’t the question directly about the wheel? I thought the Levis guy had asked somethinkg like “How did you come up with the idea for the wheel?”
At which point Jenn inserted herself.
I thing that Kevin, as PM, probably should have asserted himself after that question and said ,“That was Ivana’s idea. Ivana?”
It would have been a good way to properly distribute credit without Ivana having to jump in and say “me, me, me.”
Oops. Sorry about that weird double post. I usually copy my posts to my clipboard before posting as insurance against them getting eaten. I accidentally hit paste this time.
I’m not bothered at all by Jenn taking the compliment in front of the client and not giving kudos to Ivana because they are, in effect, on the same team. The whole ‘quit while you’re ahead’ thing. The Levi’s guy – in the real world, the client – doesn’t really care one way or the other. He was asked a question and he answered it. I think Jenn recognized that and kept her mouth shut – good choice for the show and a good choice in real life.
HOWEVER, I think she would have elevated herself a great deal had she made a point to clarify to DT (in the boardroom) Ivana’s superior role in the task (I hate even writing that…I can’t stand Ivana). To me, that would have shown her good judgment (not arguing with the client or saying the client’s assessment of the situation is incorrect) AND ability to credit others.