I just reviewed my tape, Dewey. Jenn M. didn’t just say that she rose high within her law firm. She said that “rose to the top” (her exact words)!
Now, I’ll admit that the term “rose to the top” is subject to interpretation. Still, if she’s not a partner within the firm, then I find it difficult to see how that claim can be justified. In fact, the NBC website describes her as a “securities litigator,” and makes no mention of any rank, managerial duties or company honors. So I can’t help but wonder what the senior partners within her law firm think of her assertion.
As for describing her as an “empty suit,” I think that’s more ambiguous, and subject to greater interpretation. I wouldn’t apply that term to Jenn myself, but I can see how others would. I’ve known a few engineers who are quite brilliant and loaded with talent, but who have lousy people skills and business savvy. Some of them have caused tremendous internal strife and discord with their customers. I would certainly feel comfortable calling them “empty suits,” despite their brains and talent.
Didja read what Dewey wrote? Associates are fungible billing units. She has probably spent those five years slaving away as a litigator, billing ridiculous numbers of hours and working her ass off. She’s clearly on a partner track and will get there anon. But meantime, there aren’t a lot of opportunities for leadership per se in that position. She probably works alone a lot, and that’s what she’s best at, which was clear from the final task.
She also did list off the many, many instances when she saved her team’s bacon, a list of which you are well aware and I won’t rehash here, unless you really think I need to. Jenn stepped up either with ideas, or with the right words at the right time, on many occasions. No, she never stood in front of a group and said, “I’m your dictator!” ala Elizabeth, but that’s just not her style. She definitely did not step up in the way that Kelly did, and I don’t think she’s actually very comfortable as the dictatorial leader.
In that respect, I guess Kelly is better for the job as the apprentice than Jenn is. He’s used to giving and receiving unquestioned orders. I’m sure Jenn is a very successful lawyer and will continue to rise in her profession. She is neither a leader nor a follower; she works best on her own, which is a strength when you’re an attorney in certain fields. She may not be suited to the corporate world, where she has to contend with idiots like Trump’s COO and people like Carolyn who don’t like other women very much. Kelly will do fine in that environment.
Yeah, that would have flown. Nothing she could have said at that point would have helped, and I think she would have been mocked on this thread for an answer like that anyway. She just couldn’t win.
I am finding myself in the odd and distinctly uncomfortable position of agreeing with Omarosa: behavior that is found abrasive and unlikeable in Jenn is seen as appealing in Kelly. There is a double standard at work here and everywhere. As Bette Davis said, “When a man gives his opinion he’s a man. When a woman gives her opinion she’s a bitch.” Kelly’s whispering and conniving and two-faced backstabbing and passive-aggressive behavior all would have gotten him labeled as a bitch if he were a woman, but no one would label Kelly a bitch now, would they? I guess that’s why I’m so disgusted at the universal Jenn dislike-- IMO she wouldn’t have been nearly so pilloried if she’d been a man behaving the same way.
I completely disagree on the basis that I saw few similarities between Jenn’s and Kelly’s behavior, and the similarities that did exist were taken to the extreme by Jenn.
Rarely did I see Kelly raise his voice, interrupt people in the boardroom and throw around logical fallacies at the rate and consistency Jenn did. Jen’s a bitch not because of a double standard, but because she acted completely immature and shirked responsibility whenever available, especially when relative to Kelly.
So? The same could be said of engineers, programmers, construction workers, or any number of other professions. That shouldn’t stop someone from finding ways in which they stand out above and beyond her peers. I knew that early on in my career.
Once again though, we are talkin about her five-year work experience, not her brief tenure on this show. Nobody’s denying that she made contributions during the show. The question was why she had to keep falling back on her academic credentials, instead of concrete workplace accomplishments, to explain why Trump should hire her. If you’ve been working at a firm for five years, you had better have something concrete to show for that.
In her book, What It Takes, Amy Henry talks about having a “bragging folder” to document specific accomplishments in the workplace. It should contain the kinds of things that prove yourself to be a positive contributor. Harping on one’s honors and degrees doesn’t count – and I’m saying that as someone with four degrees and multiple academic awards.
If she is neither a leader nor a follower, as you yourself admitted, then that is hardly a strength. Her options are indeed very limited.
And it’s ridiculous to say that Carolyn doesn’t like other women very much. The problem isn’t a dislike for women per se. The problem is that this batch of women was particularly unlikable.
Whether that’s true or not is beside the point. The question is WHY she didn’t have any such accomplishments to present. Don’t change the topic.
Why didn’t she cite any specific work-related accomplishments during her five-year employment? Saying “It wouldn’t have helped anyway” is not a satisfactory answer.
Nope. I think it’s foolish to say that this is merely a double-standard at play.
It’s true that assertiveness in a man can be perceived as bitchiness in a woman; however, people like Amy Henry managed to be assertive without being particularly bitchy. As Duderdude2 said, Jenn’s behavior went beyind mere assertiveness. It was immature shrieking and figurative foot-stomping all the way. No wonder she alienated virtually everyone that she worked with – both male and female. (John did stand up for her, but I don’t recall that he ever actually worked with her. Even if he did, his opinion was drowned out in both numbers and intensity.)
No, not really. The empty suits usually are quite articulate and polished. They train in that. It’s not something that distinguishes them, because a lot of their competition have honed the same qualities. I’m not sure if you’re a lawyer or not, or if you’ve ever had to try and figure out if someone is a good lawyer or not or a good fit for your law firm. I doubt that I would ever hire Jen for my law firm. She may be smart, but she’s not so much smarter than all the other candidates from Northwestern, Yale, UChicago, or Harvard that walk through the doors of our firm seeking jobs. Her whole demeanor struck me as “my degrees entitle me to a job in your firm.” She fell back far too quickly on the degrees.
I don’t doubt that she will be a successful lawyer. And I never said that smarts and capability count for naught. What I said was that she didn’t seem to have anything else that separates her from hundreds of other lawyers with similar backgrounds. Harvard Law graduates 500 students or so every year. She’s not unique, she’s one of 500 people in her graduating year with that qualification, or thousands with similar qualifications when you factor in the graduates of co-equal institutions like Yale, UChicago, Michigan, Northwestern, etc. I see them all. They’re all smart and capable, or at least have the facade of smarts and capability. At the end of the day, the fact that she went to two good schools doesn’t make her as special as she thinks it does.
After she claimed to have graduated “at the top of my class at Princeton,” she later revealed that she had graduated in the top 5 percent–not within the top 1 percent–which isn’t quite the same. I was a bit taken aback by that revelation, but no one called her on it. Impressive, still, but something of a legalistic stretch.
Frankly, the whole program is silly, manipulative, meaningless theater and I can’t believe some posters are wound up so tightly over a TV show. My unease with Jen was her naked aggression. I distaste that in anyone. I don’t recall Kelly being that way. I also didn’t find him that arrogant. There’s a difference between arrogant and confident. Nor did I see “passive-aggressive” behavior. Instead, he was trying to develop strategic alliances against a potential (and powerful) adversary. That’s important in any business dealings, especially within the parameters of this show.
I also was surprised when Jen slipped and made the comment about having initially worked on an all-female team–and then covered herself.
[QUOTE=Carnac the Magnificent!]
After she claimed to have graduated “at the top of my class at Princeton,” she later revealed that she had graduated in the top 5 percent–not within the top 1 percent–which isn’t quite the same. I was a bit taken aback by that revelation, but no one called her on it. Impressive, still, but something of a legalistic stretch.
Notice when Jenn started the shrieking-- after she found out Trump liked it. She was quiet as hell when she figured out that would keep her safe in the boardroom, having learned from Jenn C. that it’s not always a good idea to open your mouth. Then she moved onto verbal tussling when it became clear that that’s what was necessary in the later phases of the game. Andy was eliminated for NOT shrieking. She also learned that being PM meant you were likely to be fired for other people’s incompetence, and so avoided it, considering what team she was on. Pamela, a highly capable woman, was fired over $10 and a terrible team. Would you, like Chris, have deliberately stepped into that?
As to your other allegations, being a bitch is in the eye of the beholder. Kelly loved to talk behind people’s backs, call names, and be a passive-aggressive jerk-- yes, talking smack about someone who is behind a paper-thin partition, and then refusing to say anything when that person confronts you is passive aggressive, as is trying to meddle in the other team’s affairs in order to affect the outcome of their boardroom.
I think Jenn is a better human being than Kelly. Whether or not she went to West Point or had a bragging list, she is a better person. Not suited to the Trump organization, though, which is hardly the worst thing in the world.
And I do think that Carolyn doesn’t like other women. She didn’t like Amy either.
Shirked and SHRIEKED. She owes her survival to the final two to the fact that she could talk a blue streak in the board room, drowning out anyone who attempted to disagree with her. She tried to do it at the end with the Trumpster, and it blew up in her face. Yay!
Hey, my friend, why such anger? Your posts have become increasingly agitated and filled with vitriol. This is the season to be jolly, not outraged by silly, manipulative theatre. The seriousness with which you write, contrasted against the silliness of Apprentice, is a bit much.
No. Andy was eliminated for barely standing up for himself, which is not the same thing. Same thing with Jessie, last season. Other candidates, such as Kelly, have managed to defend themselves without getting shrill and shrieking.
There is a huge middle ground between aggressively defending yourself and “shrieking.” I know that I would be disinclined to hire any prospective job candidate that failed to see that.
Maybe, maybe not. I don’t recall that she didn’t like Amy at all, but even if that were true, it would not necessarily mean that she dislikes women in general. Your accusation is pretty serious, and IMO, premature (especially in light of the things she wrote in her book).
I have to agree with Carnac about the level of vitriol in your postings. To dismiss Calamari as an idiot is decidedly extreme. And on what grounds is this accusation made, exactly? Because he expressed derision for Jenn? Because he stumbled over his words? Neither of those makes someone an idiot, and so that label is rather extreme.
Ditto for insisting that Carolyn must surely hate women. That is a very serious accusation, and we simply don’t have reasonable grounds on which it can be based.
She has never really been positive about any of the female candidates IMO. She was especially hard on Jenn and Amy, the front runners in both seasons. It’s not unusual to see this in women executives. There’s even a book about it, and it’s called Queen Bee Syndrome. I think Carolyn embodies this, and could drag up evidence but I don’t want to spawn a long discussion of which I do not wish to be a part any longer.
I think your posts have been quite hostile and you have attacked me on several occasions and imputed sentiments and motives that are not mine. I’m not even mad now. I just think Kelly is a massive jerk and you don’t, and you think Jenn is a flaming bitch and I don’t. Because I’m the lone voice, you assume I’m being angry, when I’m just disagreeing with you. I wish you wouldn’t take it personally. It’s about a bloody TV show.
Who is Calamari and when did I call him an idiot? Oh, the COO. I don’t think that’s extreme. At first I thought you were talking about another poster. He certainly came off like an idiot, and I’m not the only person in this thread who said so. Someone, I forget who, said he should be fired for his performance on Thursday. Why not jump all over that poster instead of me, since his suggestion is much more extreme than mine?
Calling someone an idiot is not extreme. Please.
Oh my god. I never said she must “surely hate women.” You are putting words in my mouth, which is ridiculous and offensive. I said she doesn’t like women, and I do think she is harder on them and inclined to be negative towards them right out of the gate. I’ve thought that since Season 1 and I stand behind it. If you have a problem with that, that’s fine with me. It’s my opinion and I’m entitled to it.
My feeling right now is that, because I’m disagreeing with the prevalent sentiment on this thread, you’re all going to jump on me. I don’t think I’ve been the most vitriolic poster on this thread, but people keep reading stuff into my words that’s not there, making much ado about the words “idiot” and “dislike.” I am not willing to go to the mattresses for Jenn, since I just don’t care that much. I’m going to unsubscribe to this thread, and I hope you will just continue the conversation without me. I never took this show very seriously and was just trying to be the Devil’s advocate. This thread has already spawned a Pit thread, and I’d like to avoid another one.
Happy holidays to you all, and see you next season, in a few weeks. Hope we get a more likeable bunch next time 'round.
OK, I’ve waded through most of this ridiculous sludge on account of a complaint, and I’m making Moderator Pronouncements.
Moderator Comment #1: Personal insults and hostility
I repeat, insults of other posters are NOT permitted in Cafe Society. You may say what you want about Mr Trump or these “candidates” or the show or the producers of the show, but you may not insult each other. This thread is about entertainment, and there’s not “right” or “wrong” answers. Each poster is entitled to their opinions; you may disagree with the opinion, but you don’t express hostility towards the poster for holding it. Clear? That seems to apply to both sides in this case.
I echo Carnac’s sentiments:
Rubystreak, wake up. This is a TV show. The persona are put on. They may not be professional actors, but they’re certainly acting in this show. They’re doing what they think will get them to win, not what they think is right and not what they would do in real life, when the stakes are much less. They’re putting on. And you’re getting MUCH too wound up about it. If you want to open a thread about gender inequities in the workplace, that’s fine, but not in Cafe Society. I’m reading that you’ve got personal issues here that you’re reading into quasi-fictional characters. I think you need to calm down and let real life take over.
Moderator Comment #2: Misquoting Rubystreak said she thought Carolyn “doesn’t like other women.” JThunder paraphrased ythis as “surely hating women,” to which you took righteous indignation and complained. I agree that the paraphrase was injudicious, but it was not an unreasonable thing to read into your comment: you’re quibbling about the use of “dislike” vs “hate”. I don’t disagree with the quibble, but I think you’re going ballistic over a fairly minor wording difference.
JThunder is not misquoting you: there’s no quote marks there. He’s simply paraphrasing, using a more extreme word than what you used, but the flavor/direction is the same.
I repeat, I think your posts read like you’ve got way too many personal issues wound up in this. I suggest a vacaction from posting in this thread. Get over it.
I’m going to re-open the thread, with the reminder to everyone else to play nice. NOTE: If you want to comment on my ruling, open a thread in the Pit, don’t do it here.
Just so you know where I stand: I personally wouldn’t waste time watching this show, I find it hard to believe that y’all are getting so wound up over it, and I’m annoyed that y’all made me read a thread about it.
I apologize to anyone I’ve upset via my tone. I didn’t realize how I was coming off because I honestly don’t have a deep emotional investment in this show. I think other stresses in my life are seeping into my posts unconsciously, because I definitely don’t care that much about Jennifer Massey. Hope you all will forgive me and accept my promise that I will watch my tone from now on. It’ll be easier after Xmas and once 2004, a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad year for me, is over.
Thanks for your patience and best wishes for the holidays.
Merry Christmas to you, Rubystreak. I certainly don’t think you have anything to apologize for (more on that later in The Pit as per CK’s edict), but then, you and I may just see things more clearly than some.
As you know, Rubystreak, I’m not necessarily a Jenn fan, but I don’t hate her as much as some people do. I think everyone got a little more wound up about this than they needed to – and not for the first time, both on this issue and on others. Why do we all get so nuts about this show?
Anyway, Merry Christmas to you, and to JThunder, and to all our other fellow Apprentice fans, those who have gone ballistic at one time or another, and those who have not.
And we can all start the next season with a resolve to remember “it’s only a TV show.”
