The Banning of Shodan

[UltraVires]

@Peter_Morris

Irrelevant.

Calling someone a harpy attacks that specific individual, and nobody else. It does not matter if the attack is true, or deserved. Even if untrue, it still attacks one specific individual.

I have no idea who this person is, or whether the insult was deserved or not. I only comment on how it applies to board rules. Deserved, or undeserved, it attacks one person who is probably not a member of this message board, and does not apply to one single other person.

Agreed. Why is it that only conservative posters are held to the high standard that their provocative words must be verifiably true? I didn’t even read the linked article. Perhaps if I did, I might find this Harvard professor very calm, respectfully, erudite, and that she made her point very well, but I just happen to disagree.

Because someone else didn’t think so, that is warnable or bannable?

Posters in this thread have shown the bias. Paraphrasing: You can call Ivanka a cunt because she really is a cunt. This professor is not a harpy. Does there need to be more evidence of bias than that?

[Czarcasm]

@UltraVires

Why is it that only conservative posters are held to the high standard that their provocative words must be verifiably true?

Saying this the hundredth time without providing evidence makes it no more true than the first time it is said.

[Aspenglow]

Look, this is really simple. The word in question is not the issue. The word is a straw man.

As mentioned by Jonathan Chance in the original ‘Shodan is Banned’ thread, Shodan had been specifically cautioned to avoid using the term, ‘harpy’. He ignored this directive. So more than his choice of words is the fact that he fronted off a moderator’s prior clear instructions.

Together with his lengthy prior history of warnings and suspensions, the mods were well within their options to ban him. Flip off a moderator and take your, uh, Chance(s).

[wolfpup]

@UltraVires

Posters in this thread have shown the bias. Paraphrasing: You can call Ivanka a cunt because she really is a cunt. This professor is not a harpy. Does there need to be more evidence of bias than that?

Yes, there does. The evidence that you are omitting from your presentation, counselor, is the bigger picture of the poster’s history, and in particular, his most recent history. I say this as someone who regrets Shodan being banned and wish that he had been given a suspension instead, as he was one of the more articulate conservative posters who unfortunately developed a habit of becoming more and more trollish over time. The post in question was a classic example of trolling – the “harpy” part was almost incidental. I have strong opinions about homeschooling and the purported reasons for it, but it’s a subject that can be discussed in a reasonable, rational manner. Shodan’s post was in no way any kind of attempt to do so.

Your argument is also defeated by the banning of Budget Player Cadet, also unfortunate in my opinion, but someone on the exact opposite side of the political spectrum. His problem was basically the inability to contain his emotions.

FWIW, I frankly regret the loss of both of them, as there are still one or two jerks on the board who are worse than either of them, and I’m not necessarily even talking about their politics. Also FWIW, I’m not referring to anyone who has posted in this thread.

[SlackerInc]

FWIW I don’t have a problem with a warning for using the language Shodan did in that post. If it’s not his first warning in the past month or two, suspend him for a week. But absent something much more egregious, it should not be a ban.

Point being that there is a lot of real estate between saying what he wrote should be perfectly acceptable and saying he should not be banned.

@HMS_Irruncible

If you’re here to troll the libs, just say it,

Some people seem to have a really hard time understanding this, but I am a “lib” (as in liberal). I’m just an old school liberal (not a “classical liberal”, which is an economic conservative) who opposes political correctness. This is a real thing, with prominent exemplars like Jonathan Chait, Ricky Gervais, and Bill Maher. (Yes, we are all straight cisgender white dudes over 45, the horror.). Just because the woke, politically correct style of progressive is more numerous online (and nowhere else) does not mean you can lump us in with conservatives.

@HMS_Irruncible

Yet despite all the jeremiads about how horribly sad it all is, you keep coming back for no purpose other than to complain about it.

No other purpose? Do you honestly believe this, or is it just wild hyperbole? If the former, I will attempt to educate you. If the latter, I will attempt to make sure that this false claim is not left to stand unchallenged before those who may not post on the same topics I do.

Here is everything I have posted outside this thread within the past 24 hours. If you don’t care to click the links and read the posts, they are about Title IX, the TV show Survivor, the most recent Star Wars movie, and my comically inept gift wrapping job on my wife’s Mother’s Day presents.

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=22303756#post22303756

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=22303728#post22303728

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=22303727#post22303727

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=22301765#post22301765

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=22301735#post22301735

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=22301731#post22301731

None of them can possibly be construed as complaints about the board. :dubious:

In fact, I don’t think I ever even posted on ATMB until 2014 or so, after being a Doper for nearly 20 years. And it’s still only a small fraction of my posting output.

[Peter_Morris]

@Aspenglow

Look, this is really simple. The word in question is not the issue. The word is a straw man.

As mentioned by Jonathan Chance in the original ‘Shodan is Banned’ thread, Shodan had been specifically cautioned to avoid using the term, ‘harpy’. He ignored this directive. So more than his choice of words is the fact that he fronted off a moderator’s prior clear instructions.

Together with his lengthy prior history of warnings and suspensions, the mods were well within their options to ban him. Flip off a moderator and take your, uh, Chance(s).

Wrong on several counts.

First of all, YOU say the word isn’t the issue, but the moderators say otherwise. According to Chronos: “He was banned for insulting members of the board, approximately half of them…By using an inherently gendered insult, Shodan was asserting that her gender was relevant, and made her in some way unqualified to hold opinions or make decisions.”

Second, if it really were because he failed to follow moderator instructions, then the moderators should spell that out clearly. If that was their reason, they have not communicated it very well.

Third, when exactly was the instruction given in the first place? Searching the archives, I can see no mention of it. As far as I can find, Shodan only used the word on one other occasion, in a pit thread, in 2005, for which he was not moderated. As far as I can find, Jonathan Chance only moderated the word one one previous occasion, when used by a different poster (Saint Cad). Even then, I’m not certain if the warning is for ‘harpy’ or for ‘shove [it] up your ass’. I think it’s the latter.

Fourth, the punishment is harsh, disproportionate to the offence, and contrary to precedent.

• RioRico got a 7 day suspension, returned, got several warnings in less than 4 months, and as a result was given a 30 day suspension and put on his last chance.
• Shodan got a 7 day suspension, returned, behaved himself for 8 months, then got one warning, and was banned. No 30 day suspension, no last chance.
  See the difference between them? See how Shodan got a harsher treatment?

[kambuckta]

Fucking hell, it’s really simple.

Shodan called the protagonist in this saga a harpy, purely and solely because she was a female. There was no other evidence submitted that would have earned her such a title…except she was a woman.

Shodan had previously been formally warned about his use of the word ‘harpy’. He obviously ignored the warnings.

C’est la vie I guess.

[SlackerInc]

Where is the evidence that he was previously warned about this word? I agree that this would make a difference but I have not seen it.

[Peter_Morris]

@kambuckta

Shodan had previously been formally warned about his use of the word ‘harpy’. He obviously ignored the warnings.

As I said in the post immediately above yours, I can find no evidence of that.

[Peter_Morris]

@Chronos

He was not banned for insulting a person on the board. He was banned for insulting members of the board, approximately half of them. The gender of the professor was completely irrelevant to what she was saying, and to what members in good faith were debating. By using an inherently gendered insult, Shodan was asserting that her gender was relevant, and made her in some way unqualified to hold opinions or make decisions. That’s what we weren’t putting up with.

Dear Mr Chronos,

The following is a key question to this discussion. I would be very much obliged if you could answer it.

The word ‘harpy’ has been used many times on the SDMB by many people outside of the pit, without any recriminations from the moderators. **Velocity **gave a few examples in an earlier post.

Thesetwo threadsare a good example. The OP refers to a particular person as a harpy. Several people responding, giving advice or opinions use the same word.

The gender of the offending person in these two threads is irrelevant. It would be possible to have the exact same situation caused by an offensive male person.

In your opinion, should all of these people have received Warnings, or mod notes? Would you have issued such, if it had fallen under your authority?

Would you say, therefore, that every use of the word in the threads linked is an insult to half the members of the board?

If not, please explain the difference.

Posted on the board, and a copy sent by PM.

[hajario]

@kambuckta

Fucking hell, it’s really simple.

Shodan called the protagonist in this saga a harpy, purely and solely because she was a female. There was no other evidence submitted that would have earned her such a title…except she was a woman.

Shodan had previously been formally warned about his use of the word ‘harpy’. He obviously ignored the warnings…

Prior to that post, he hadn’t used that word in fifteen years.

[HMS_Irruncible]

@SlackerInc

Some people seem to have a really hard time understanding this, but I am a “lib” (as in liberal). I’m just an old school liberal (not a “classical liberal”, which is an economic conservative) who opposes political correctness. This is a real thing,

“AcTuAllY I’m tHe REAL LIBERAL hErE”. This is the tiredest, rustiest saw in the shed, but thank you for letting me know what level of discourse to expect in the future.

This isn’t the 1700’s. Context matters, all the water you carry for Thomas Hobbes ultimately serves the ends of conservatives, and you can’t hide that behind semantic labeling games.

[Isosleepy]

@Peter_Morris

Wrong on several counts.

First of all, YOU say the word isn’t the issue, but the moderators say otherwise. According to Chronos: “He was banned for insulting members of the board, approximately half of them…By using an inherently gendered insult, Shodan was asserting that her gender was relevant, and made her in some way unqualified to hold opinions or make decisions.”

Second, if it really were because he failed to follow moderator instructions, then the moderators should spell that out clearly. If that was their reason, they have not communicated it very well.

Third, when exactly was the instruction given in the first place? Searching the archives, I can see no mention of it. As far as I can find, Shodan only used the word on one other occasion, in a pit thread, in 2005, for which he was not moderated. As far as I can find, Jonathan Chance only moderated the word one one previous occasion, when used by a different poster (Saint Cad). Even then, I’m not certain if the warning is for ‘harpy’ or for ‘shove [it] up your ass’. I think it’s the latter.

Fourth, the punishment is harsh, disproportionate to the offence, and contrary to precedent.

• RioRico got a 7 day suspension, returned, got several warnings in less than 4 months, and as a result was given a 30 day suspension and put on his last chance.
• Shodan got a 7 day suspension, returned, behaved himself for 8 months, then got one warning, and was banned. No 30 day suspension, no last chance.
  See the difference between them? See how Shodan got a harsher treatment?

This is about as perfect a recap of the situation as might be found. “Harpy“? Please.

[asahi]

Is Shodan worth 8 pages?

[Chronos]

Peter Morris, first of all, both of those examples are from three years ago. We’ve been trying to improve since then. Second, both of them are from a forum that I don’t moderate, and so I cannot say why any action was or was not taken on them.

But third of all, both of those refer to a person (who appears to be the same person) whom the OP knows personally, and who is known to have (at least, in the OP’s opinion) a number of character traits similar to those of the mythological vulture-women. He’s not calling her a harpy because she’s a female who disagrees with him; he’s calling her a harpy because she has a toxic, abusive personality. It’s still unfortunate that the metaphor of choice for these personality traits is an inherently gendered one, but again, that’s something that in the past years we’ve been attempting to move past.

[Chronos]

As for “contrary to precedent”, the precedent has to look at the totality of the circumstances. Not everyone will receive the same response for the same actions, because not everyone has the same history.

[PlaceboTarget]

@asahi

Is Shodan worth 8 pages?

This thread is not really about Shodan’s banning although it is this banning that has prompted it. It is about SDMB in search of its identity.

It might be the expression of the fact that there is a collective and contemporary crisis in the US at the moment. Or it may be a tempest in a teapot.

[Peter_Morris]

Is it possible that Shodan used the term for someone with a toxic, abusive personality in his opinion?

Does the moderation staff have to agree with this opinion ? If they agree, it’s permissible, if they don’t agree it will get a warning.

(personalluy speaking, I have no idea if she is or isn’t toxic, and think it shouldn’t be relevant)

[Chingon]

Well Shodan also (earnestly) held the opinion that some black people have qualities that makes it accurate to call them niggers. Would it have been ok for him to call a professor at U of Niagara a Niagara Nigger if, in his opinion, the professor was acting niggerish?

[MrDibble]

@Peter_Morris

Is it possible that Shodan used the term for someone with a toxic, abusive personality in his opinion?

Are you asking if it a possible interpretation of his post? The answer is no, because he wasn’t commenting on her *personality *in any way. Just her academic work.