The Boy Scouts Still Thinking of the Children

[InsomniaMama]

@Algher

Sometimes we can be ID’d by our Scouting For All knot (illegal, but worn at times regardless).

Are you kidding me? I hope you are more vocal than that.

So, I’m pretty sure our school allows scouts to have meetings after school in the gym. Is this not common? Should I be protesting? How?

[Lord_Feldon]

@Unintentionally_Blank

Perhaps when you’ve been around a little bit longer, you’ll find the world isn’t such a cut and dried place, and you’ll pick and choose your battles.

I am picking and choosing my battles; I’m battling for full legal, political, and social equality for myself and others. And when people equate that with wanting to run out and fuck like crazy in front of children, that’s a good sign that I’m battling them (that is, you), too.

[sisu]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

You can be “actually Boy Scouts” regardless of affiliation, though in fairness the specific term “Boy Scout” is trademarked by BSA.

Only in the USA mate!

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Well, yes. This thread is about the Boy Scouts of America. I thought it kind of went without saying that the Boy Scouts of America are… in America.

[Rhythmdvl]

In some ways they’re in the stone age.

[alphaboi867]

@fluiddruid

Hope that he doesn’t turn out atheist and get kicked out entirely for being honest, then.

I’m still a little bitter about being thrown out of the Cub Scouts over that.

@Voyager

My first troop was sponsored by our local civic organization, the second by our synagogue. I am just stunned that Mormons, who don’t have that many members, have such a predominant number of units.

That’s because the LDS church automatically signs every boy of the appropriate age up for the Scouts wether they ever attend a meeting or not.

[Kenm]

I wonder if U.S. scouts are still allowed to attend rallies outside the U.S.

Probably, if they’re armed with repurposed perfume spritzers loaded with holy water to burn holes in all them god damned atheist and gay scouts.

Super soakers are reserved for gay atheists.

[Monty]

@Buck_Godot

The only connection with Mormonism that I saw was when one of our leaders (a Methodist Army Ranger). Took us to a military training camp near Salt lake city to practice our rapelling, and he pointed out that the big statue of Joseph Smith on top of the main Salt lake temple had his back to the church and his hand held out to the First national Bank.

ETA: Looking at pictures of the main temple on google show that I am probably misremembering which statue, where, and of whom, but the gist of the story is correct.

The statue is of Moroni. And I’m fairly certain that statue was in place before First National Bank was.

[Beastly_Rotter]

@bup

In my small experience of the world, scouting enthusiasm was positively correlated with gayness, in fact.

Well, the founding text was called Scouting For Boys.

[Unintentionally_Blank]

@Lord_Feldon

I am picking and choosing my battles; I’m battling for full legal, political, and social equality for myself and others. And when people equate that with wanting to run out and fuck like crazy in front of children, that’s a good sign that I’m battling them (that is, you), too.

In a private organization? Then who is telling who what to do?

I’ll be using this for my children as an example of a much more subtle lesson. There are bigoted assholes in EVERY group of people. It does not mean the vast majority (or even the local minority) has to be the same way.

I’m pretty sure this stance will change as it has in many other aspects of our life. (Military, Same Sex Marriage, Legalization of Marijuana) There’s a BUNCH of historic changes being made in the fabric of our lives and I think this’ll be another one.

But hey, here’s another REALLY interesting bit of evidence (you know, because rather than namecalling and chest thumping, I’m trying to add value to the conversation.)

@atomic_power

Comment by user: atomic_power saved on Wed Jul 18 2012 18:32:41 GMT-0600 (MDT)
TL-DR; The Internet doesn’t understand how BSA works and is not interpreting current events properly. There is nothing to get excited about. BSA will not change, and it wouldn’t matter if they did.
I am an Eagle Scout and a Scoutmaster. Have been for many, many years. I’ve also worked at the district and council level as a volunteer for many years. A couple of things…
The BSA web site has a disclaimer on it right now that says they are just following procedure with the original submitted proposal. This does not mean they are even considering a change in policy. The review is pro-forma only.
The Boy Scouts of America are a national consulting group. They contract with local corporations which are sales/service organizations operating in protected territories called “councils” that usually encompass a few counties or a metro area. The councils contract with BSA, they are not owned by BSA. The council employees an average of 1.2 employees per district - usually a district lines up to a county. The rest of the council, district, and troop jobs are all covered by volunteers.
The troops, packs, etc are all owned by the chartering organizations - churches, businesses, PTA’s, schools, clubs, etc. Those organizations sign a charter with BSA to follow the program, but they own the unit.
Unit membership is ALWAYS at the discretion of the chartering unit’s COR (Chartering Organization Representative). The COR is selected by the chartering organization to select volunteers to staff committees and leadership positions in the troops and packs.
The COR can dismiss anyone from any troop or pack for any reason. He can dismiss everyone. The COR owns the scout unit’s treasury. The COR has total dictatorial power over the unit within the bounds of the scouting program.
So, when you read news stories about a gay, atheist, or just plain ornery adult complaining they were kicked out of the scouts, and then you read BSA is under attack for their national policies, usually you are only getting half the story.
The other half of the story is that it was the COR that removed the leader in question. He can do that. It doesn’t matter what BSA’s policy is. He doesn’t even need an excuse. He can just pull out any leader he is not comfortable with. His signature is required for every leader to serve and must be obtained annually during rechartering.
That means you cannot just volunteer to be a scout leader. The COR must approve of you. It also means that even if BSA reversed the policy, most organizations would likely continue to discriminate willy-nilly on any basis they like about who can be a leader. There are scout troops with a gay woman as the scoutmaster. That’s rare. There are also scout troops where no woman can hold any position even though BSA says they can. There are troops that won’t accept any man who has a white collar job because he doesn’t hunt and fish and won’t fit in. There are troops that won’t let minorities or non-church members be leaders.
Complaining to BSA is more of a show than anything likely to have any effect.
I agree the BSA is out of step with the times and should overturn the policy on gays and atheists. I support the change. However, our COR is a fundamentalist baptist and wouldn’t sign an application submitted by anyone that he met that he felt was “swishy” as a man or “butch” as a woman. If you don’t line up to his ideal as to what a guide for the youth in the program looks like, you don’t get to be a leader.
So, I find all of this drama to be a waste of time. Usually these things happen when someone is gay, the folks in the chartering org don’t know it, two years later they finally dig in and find out who is doing what because someone who doesn’t like someone else complains, and they find out that they have someone they feel is not fit to lead kids. They then fire them. Then everyone complains to the Boy Scouts to do something about it, and the Boy Scouts roll out Deron and he says, “Hi, everyone. The BSA is a private organization and we have the right to discriminate as we operate off of donations.”
Then lots of people on the Internet talk about how BSA is funded with tax money (that has not been true for a long, long time), or how they use facilities for free that are government owned (that has not been true for over a decade either since the first big law suit).
Then there is a huge argument about what the scouts should do, how the mormons control it (also false - the methodist church is the biggest supporter and has an official request for the scouts to end their policy here).
BSA is a consulting group. They don’t run these troops. They don’t pick volunteers. They don’t get involved. All of what you see them doing is protecting themselves from liability and defending their right to call out what they see as bad behavior (they are wrong, but that is the line they are walking).
End result: 80% of America does not want to leave their son in the care of a gay man. If you did that, and your son were molested, you’d be guilty of negligence and laughed all the way to jail. considered negligent by others and mocked as a fool.
So no one is going to do that, even if it has no practical risk. Most Americans in rural areas (where most scout units are located) want their sons in the presence of tough, outdoorsy men who are rugged and think wearing pink is for sissies.
So, you aren’t going to see any change here. I wish we were, but we aren’t.
I would like to see scouting open to atheists and adoption of the outlander’s oath for them that Baden Powell created for atheists, Buddhists, and other non-christians to use.
BTW, only in the US is a scout brave or reverent. In every other nation, the scout law has ten points, not twelve, and reverent is not one of them.
From my comment here: Reddit - The heart of the internet
Edit: removed non-literal expression that was causing mayhem due to excessive use of metaphor without clarity.
Update: Wow. Lots of really interesting comments. I didn’t think this would attract this much discussion. Some clarifications:
I want the policy to change because I believe discrimination based on prejudice is anti-American
I am not however open to discussions about the nature of homosexuality. I’m an old man interested in justice and freedom. I don’t care if I am personally a homophobe, and readily admit that I have prejudices there. I would never allow a transgender person to lead in my scout organization or support cross dressers. There are limits to how far I am willing to push. Let the next generation do that if they like.
I think the policy is bad for BSA and bad for the kids who could learn from scouting
I also think that the angry lashing out of some who wish to scientifically discuss the risk of pedophilia or the realities of homosexuality are missing the boat: This is an emotional issue, not a logical one. When parents are considering risks to their children, they don’t care about facts. They care about feelings.
You will have to win them over slowly, and softly. Not all at once, and certainly not with accusations and name calling.
If you make this about acceptance of alternative lifestyles instead of ceasing a counter-cultural restriction from a centralized authority, you will never win them over.

[MandaJo]

@Unintentionally_Blank

In a private organization? Then who is telling who what to do?

I’ll be using this for my children as an example of a much more subtle lesson. There are bigoted assholes in EVERY group of people. It does not mean the vast majority (or even the local minority) has to be the same way.
)

And if your 15 year old son turns out to be gay, will you tell him “Well, keep your mouth shut until you get your Eagle, then”? Will you tell him to lie if asked directly? Or will you tell him to just give up on it and accept that the organization he loves doesn’t want him anymore?

[John_Mace]

This is a tough call. I was a Boy Scout in the 60s. Never made Eagle, but I was Order of the Arrow and Sr Patrol Leader of our Troop. I loved camping and the outdoors in general, and had a great time in the Scouts. Back then, of course, the issue of being gay never came up. There were no such things as “Gay Rights”.

Times change, and some organizations are going to change more quickly than others. What to do? My sense is that it’s still better to stay and try and change the system from within. I wouldn’t want to give up the Scouts and hand the whole organization over to the anti-gay crowd, which is exactly what would happen if all the tolerant people up and left.

Alternatively, someone needs to take leadership and form a gay-tolerant organization like the Scouts that teaches valuable life skills without the bigotry. Any one see that on the horizon? Or maybe it’s already been brought up-- I admit I’m late to the game here and have not read the entire thread.

[Tom_Scud]

@John_Mace

Alternatively, someone needs to take leadership and form a gay-tolerant organization like the Scouts that teaches valuable life skills without the bigotry. Any one see that on the horizon? Or maybe it’s already been brought up-- I admit I’m late to the game here and have not read the entire thread.

There is Camp Fire USA, which I mentioned above, though I think they’re still a primarily female organization.

[Unintentionally_Blank]

@MandaJo

And if your 15 year old son turns out to be gay, will you tell him “Well, keep your mouth shut until you get your Eagle, then”? Will you tell him to lie if asked directly? Or will you tell him to just give up on it and accept that the organization he loves doesn’t want him anymore?

he wouldn’t be the first one. I’m actually doing a LOT of research on this and the common comment is:

It didn’t matter right up til the final review with the eagle scout review committee, with in all ways was a formality except if you said you had no belief in a higher being, or were gay.

EVERYONE else didn’t care.

[John_Mace]

It seems rather silly now, but the only controversy I encountered in the Scouts was religious. My family was Catholic, but the Troops I was in were always sponsored by one of the Protestant denominations. Our priest told my parents that it would be a sin for me to go to the annual, non-Catholic Church service that they had. I think he probably just made that up-- we’re talking mid to late 1960s here, not the 1560s.

Anyway, I will say that there is a LOT of hazing that goes on in the Scouts. You figure if you throw a bunch of boys together, aged 11 - 16 (or older) that the older kids, especially, are going to be rough on the younger kids. And if you’re different, then you’re a target. I do remember the one kid in our troop who was hazed ruthlessly. Maybe he was gay, I don’t know, but mainly he was just not athletic in any way. As one of the senior guys in my troop, I had to sort of take him under my wing and make sure he didn’t get hurt. To be honest, I didn’t rally care so much for that responsibility, being only about 14 at the time myself, and not wanting that kid to cut into my “fun time” with the rest of the troop.

But the thing is, kids have to go through some sort of socializing process, and you can’t protect them from every pitfall they may encounter. Better to take some active, adult role in the troop so as to make sure that process doesn’t get too out of hand.

[Buck_Godot]

@Monty

The statue is of Moroni. And I’m fairly certain that statue was in place before First National Bank was.

Actually as it turns out it wasBrigham Young, and even at the time I knew that it was just a coincidence, but it helps to illustrate that our varsity scout leaders weren’t exactly pro-mormon.

[Monty]

The only statue on top of the temple is that of Moroni. Here is a picture.

[MandaJo]

@Unintentionally_Blank

he wouldn’t be the first one. I’m actually doing a LOT of research on this and the common comment is:

It didn’t matter right up til the final review with the eagle scout review committee, with in all ways was a formality except if you said you had no belief in a higher being, or were gay.

EVERYONE else didn’t care.

Right. So what’s it like for a kid to get to that point, and then get kicked out? Or do you think they should lie?

[Unintentionally_Blank]

I think it’s a life lesson in the making. And that lesson should be:

Your hard work and involvement can be affected by the stupid predilections of stupid people. I will stand with you however you decide. I also think it’s a lesson a child entering scouts X years from now won’t experience.

Should he lie? No. May he have to? Probably. Is 99.999% of the rest of the experience to be missed based on this stupidity? Man I hope not. Scouting is FUN. The skills learned are valueable. And I don’t care what you say, there’s no organization that has the draw, pull, and brand of the Boyscouts.

It’s easy to stand back when you’re not invested in something and yell and stamp, it’s quite another when you’re knee deep in it. I would like to think my personal involvement with the kids of my pack is making their life better, but what do I know, I’m just a Bigoted Asshole for not taking up this particular flag in this particular crusade.

[FloatyGimpy]

Just read this today:

Gay teen stripped of Eagle Scouts Honor:

Gay Teen No Longer Eagle Scout - Philadelphia Magazine