But what of the preteen boy struggling with his sexual identity? What message are you sending that kid? Is it any wonder he’s not sure who to turn to, or who to take his issues to? The parents have, knowingly, sent him a very, very confusing message, just so he can get in a little camping. You do know that homosexual teen suicide rates are off the charts, right?
Looking the other way, isn’t an answer, it’s an excuse.
Scouts Canada said no to the anti gay agenda, and the sky did not fall. Perhaps the US scouts should just man up and fish or cut bait. Either embrace it and acknowledge it or denounce it. Trying to be on both sides, just makes them seem lame to me. They are supposed to be about building leadership skills, right?
At the very least, you’re teaching them that when standing up for someone else could mean negative consequences for you, an acceptable response is to ignore it.
If you find out, in 5 yrs, that 3 of them were actually gay, will you still feel the same? Do you think they won’t understand the subtext of your participation in an organization that requires them to deny what they are? Don’t you pretty much constantly pump them about advancing up the ranks? What do you think they internalize, knowing they can’t because they’re gay?
You are intentionally simplifying the issue. I would also hope that his confusion is something he’s been discussing with his family for a long time. We are, and will continue to be, loving parents that support our children.
It would be reckless of us, however, to tell him that there aren’t small minded people making small minded decisions and that the best way to handle that is to make sure your values don’t rely on other people’s opinion.
That’s a subtle lesson: You are who YOU choose to be. Don’t IDENTIFY yourself with the worst parts of society.
Would you be an open homosexual in the deep south? I can say it’s pretty safe to be out, here in Downtown Metro Denver, where it might not be so in (picking a small town) Anderson, Alabama. Is that right? Absolutely not. Is it acceptable? Absolutely not. Is it changing? Yes.
I. Personally. Will teach and instruct and assist my kids in all ways possible. Without discrimination.
That teaches them that these big, nasty, entities are made up of people, and those people may not necessarily agree with what those Big, Nasty, Entities say.
These kids NEED that kind of positive influence. A large number of our kids come from single family homes and scouting is a way for them to see positive role models, to see things they wouldn’t ever see otherwise, and to build skills they’ll use for the rest of their lives.
Or would you rather I didn’t? Because man, sometimes, it’s another full time job, but it’s a worthy job.
In fact, the comment you’re responding to was interesting for a foreigner like me because reading the thread I wondered why people just didn’t create another boyscout association. For instance, in France there are two main ones, one more religious and traditional than the other, and a couple secondary ones (I think one is Jewish).
So mentioning that “boy scout” is trademarked in the USA answers my (not asked) question.
You’re kidding, right? He admitted when he mentioned the statue that he wasn’t certain of the location of the statue or the person depicted, but that the statue is ironically saluting the bank with its back to the temple. He even posted a link to a photo with the caption “The famous statue of Brigham Young in Salt Lake City (his back to the temple, his hand outstretched to the bank…)” His story illustrated in a small, anecdotal way that some minor BSA leaders like to poke fun of Mormons.
And your statement about the statue predating the bank is rubbish. The bank has been around since 1873. The temple was completed 20 years later, but I’m not sure at what phase of construction Moroni was installed. The statue of Brigham “There stands old Brigham up on his perch, with his face toward the bank and his ass toward the church” Young was put there 24 years after he founded the bank. [/tangent]
My parents and I were very involved with scouting when I was a kid. (ETA: My dad was a Packmaster, Scoutmaster, and closet atheist.)The whole gay issue never came up, so if BSA was a “hate group” then at least most of its younger members were blissfully unaware. We didn’t quiz new recruits about their orientation or their belief in God, although each meeting began and ended with a Mormon-style prayer and all kids were encouraged to earn whatever special award their church offered. Now I follow all of these threads with interest, as I have 2 boys approaching cub scout age and am debating whether to get them (and myself) involved.
He was NOT stripped of his Eagle Scout award. He was fired from his summer camp position. You need to click through to the article that is linked in the blog.
Still nonsense - but this is the same as the Dale decision. An Eagle Scout becomes an adult and decides to give back to Scouting by becoming a volunteer. Once out of the closet, they can not remain a registered Scouter (Scouter is the term for adult volunteers, vs Scout for the youth).
Actually even that is a good life lesson. Some rules deserve to be ignored or skirted around if possible under certain circumstances. But you have to be sure that WHY you are doing so is a good reason and willing to take the hit if you get caught. Fighting a shitty rule is the most obvious way to defeat one. But I’d say its not always the optimum way or the most effective way either.
You know who else always followed stupid rules and oaths? Nazi war criminals.
I have taught that in 1:1 conversations with boys who are questioning their faith (or lack thereof). I have told them that if their answer is that they don’t know and are still searching - they are fine. If they state 100% that they are atheist - then they will not pass their Board of Review for rank advancement.
Am I violating one of the laws - yes I am. I admit it. But since this is the hand I am dealt, I will play it as best as I can.
Some of you have said that staying in to fight from the inside is wrong. I thought I would add a little more color to my response:
It took the Presbyterians decades to finally get the General Assemble to allow the ordination of Gays and Lesbians. I never left the church, instead I worked from within the structure to push for this change. I am glad that the efforts of many finally came through.
When California passed prop 8, I didn’t leave the state - I simply supported any repeal or lack of support for fighting the legal challenges.
I see Scouting the same way I see the military, my church and my state - they will be dragged into the light sooner or later - and better that I stick around on the inside. If people like me leave - then the only ones left will be those who will delay the inevitable even longer. Scouting is good, it offers a lot, and it needs to open up.
For all of you former Scouts who worry about enrolling your kids - please write that down and send a note to Irving, TX and your local council. The BSA needs to hear that they are losing potential Scouts and leaders due to their policies. The best letters are those from people who wore the uniform - the natural future parents and Scout Leaders. Tell them that you can’t enroll your kids in an openly bigoted organization. Ask for local control (it is our nose under the tent tactic).
Everyone else can write too - it just is even more powerful when it comes from the alumni.
What does that guy that runs Chik-Fil-A have to do with this?
Another thought occured to me. Lets say a scout is gay or athiest. He works damn hard to do the work to get his Eagle Scout. And while I know little about scouting I am pretty damn sure doing the work to get one has many positive benefits that have nothing to do whether you actually get the official title or not.
Now, a few years that Scout is sending out resumes. And on it it say Eagle Scout* or almost Eagle Scout or Gay Eagle Scout or some such.
Former Scout comes in for a job interview. Interviewer will most likely ask about this odd Eagle Scout entry. Young adult replies something to the effect of “I did ALL the work required to get it, but at the last minute I told em I was gay/athiest and that if they still did not want to award me my well deserved title that said much more about them then it did about me.” Or something like that.
If I was the interviewer I’d be impressed with that young man.
Hence my edit to the first post that I probably got the place and name wrong.:smack: The Brigham young monument definitely matches my memory better than Moroni.
Really? With the family that enrolled him in an organization that somewhat openly discriminates against gays? I’m not thinking that young man is likely to open up to his parents, myself.
Personally I’m glad that there are people who are willing to stay on. As I said, if they ever stand up to this, there will be no organization, for people to flock back to, if no one stays in. And scouting is a great thing for a lot of kids, I don’t think anyone questions that, truly.
I don’t think anyone is saying that, actually. I think people are trying to understand, how people who stay in, make it okay with themselves. What do they tell themselves? Is it just looking the other way? Is it nudge, nudge, wink, wink? Is it actively addressing it with scouts? It does seem odd to people, that an organization so structured around strong values of honesty and integrity would contain those willing to just ignore what others see as clear injustice.
You’re not really under attack and there is no need to feel defensive, I sincerely think people are just trying to understand. You can clearly see many people have struggled with letting their kids join, or not.
Thats an easy fix. You tell the kid that you don’t think there is anything wrong with being gay. You wish that the Scouts were more gay friendly and there are folks fighting to change it. And that almost every group or organization is going to have a stand that you disagree with but it doesn’t mean the whole thing is 100 percent evil either. Its not like we are sending some young minority kid to KKK camp.
Funny, reading your posts here is making me think almost exactly the same thing.
How likely would that scenario be, considering the lessons the applicant learned at an early age about the necessities of lying about his sexual orientation to people in a position of power?
It’s kind of funny - you’re lying to an organization for which I have very little respect, in service of an agenda I support, and somehow, this post bugs me more than anything else I’ve read in this thread. I mean, you’re basically proving the BSA administrations point for them, aren’t you? I don’t think that being gay or atheist is at cross purposes with the BSA’s core values - but I do think that deliberately lying for personal gain is. You’re coaching your kids to act shamefully in order to cover up something about themselves that’s not remotely shameful at all.
I’m neither a Scout nor a parent, so I don’t expect this to carry too much weight with you, but that just seems… really, really wrong to me.
I’m an Eagle Scout. I learned a lot from Scouting, but I can’t support them in their current state. Maybe I could if I had a relationship with a troop like the one I was a member of.
I became and Eagle Scout right around the time the “no gays” policy was becoming an issue, or at least when it came to my attention (15 years ago). I’m still pissed off that one of the Council leaders stood up at my Eagle Scout Court of Honor (the ceremony where the Eagle Scout award is given, which was shared among the few other Scouts who had earned it at around the same time), and said how glad he was about the national decision to prohibit gay leaders and Scouts. It went against everything I had learned in my family and observed in my Troop.
My Troop was fairly liberal. We were sponsored by the Kiwanis, which are religiously affiliated, but I don’t think they’re affiliated with a specific denomination. I was one of the first group of Scouts to have to have to earn the Family Life merit badge, and the first requirement of that badge is:
A family wasn’t a mother, father, and kids. It was a group of people who depended on each other. Each of us working on the badge agreed that a family with two fathers or only a mother was as much a family as the traditional nuclear family. The kids in my Troop were friends and knew about the families. There were divorced parents, single parents, traditional parents, and non-parental families (i.e. grandmothers or adopted families). I’m veering off topic, but to have a group of kids and the merit badge councilor come up with a list that included same sex parents in the first discussion sums up how my Troop was.
One of my proudest memories was giving the opening and closing prayer at an Eagle Scout Court of Honor because the Scouts being honored were religiously diverse and they (and their parents, I suspect) knew that I would give a truly non-denominational prayer.
Looking back, I see how lucky I was to be in that Troop rather than others I could have joined. The adult leader who spoke about how great it was that there wouldn’t be any gay leaders was called to task by several parents after the ceremony. First, for using a ceremony to honor the Scouts as his political stage, and second to plainly state that many members of our Troop disagreed with the decision.
I owe a lot to the Scouts. I learned a lot about leadership and independence. I had tons of fun. I wish I could pay them back by being a leader, but I don’t think I’d pass religious muster anymore. I totally respect Algher and what he’s doing. Keep on needling them from the inside. I’ll put together that letter and push from the outside.
ETA: I know of one long term Scout in the Troop who is gay, though there are a couple now married to women who I’m a little surprised aren’t gay. I don’t think the gay Scout figured out his sexuality during his time as a Scout, but I think it’s very unlikely the Troop would have cared.
This is an absurd comparison. The KKK exists solely to be a bigoted organization. The Boy Scouts exist to develop boys into men. The bigotry is an unfortunate side show. I certainly don’t support the prohibition on atheists or gays, but their main mission is one I agree with. I’m not going to apply a purity test to every organization. The bigotry is a ward on the BSA, but I can come up with a position that I disagree with for nearly every organization I generally support. This kind of purity test is foolish.
The BSA is being deliberately and disingenuously obtuse when it insinuates it isn’t discriminating when it doesn’t “proactively” look into the sex lives of leadership. Just like Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. People wear their sexuality on their sleeves. Spend an afternoon with me and you’ll probably figure out I’m straight because I’ll mention my wife. If a man were to mention his boyfriend or husband, as I casually would mention my wife, and he’s done with Scouts. Not “proactively” looking and discriminating is the same as looking and discriminating.
I understand - I am not saying it is perfect, but on this forum I thought I would be honest. Kicking a kid out because he is questioning his faith to me is MORE wrong. I question mine on a regular basis, and I am an ordained Deacon (for what that is worth). However, I know that on the Board of Review there is often a hard-core evangelical and stating “I don’t think I believe in God” will get the poor kid slammed to the ground.
The nuance and deeper conversation I have with the boys is difficult for me to write out here. These are usually much longer conversations that I have, and they occur because the boys know that they can tell me these things without being judged.
The other thing is that sexuality and religion are, in reality, a very minor part of the activities in Scouting. Yes - the oath mentions God - so does the pledge. But 99.9% of the time these issues just don’t come up. In fact, I have parents and Scouts who are surprised to find out about the rules about atheists and gays. When we are doing Scout stuff, we don’t talk about, we don’t make a big deal about it, we don’t even discuss it. We try to teach boys to Be Prepared and to think about the moral implications of their actions. I am more concerned with bullying than when it comes to societal issues than anything else (and yes, sexuality is a big issue in bullying - which is why “you’re gay” is a hot button for me).
Subersive, huh?