blowero, right on!
Something else may be emerging that I previously hadn’t realised: Dangerosa and Zimbali - what in your opinion does the insult “cunt” mean? Because from the above posts you imply that to you it means something akin to “pussy” - i.e. a weak person.
I can assure you that the insult in the UK has the exact opposite implication. “Cunt” in the UK (and Ireland, I believe) is reserved for those people who are particularly aggressively nasty. That’s why it isn’t gender specific - it’s not being used to describe someone by their genitalia at all, but rather being used to describe someone who is particularly unpleasant.
On another topic: Dangerosa, I think you’ve slightly misjudged the implications of my post. I understand that a US person who is (a) unaware of my location and (b) unaware that the word has a different significance in the UK would take offence to my describing someone as a cunt.
So be it. But it works the other way too. A brand new UK-based person on these boards may merrily use the word whilst being unaware of its US implication. What about that poor schmuck? Are you happy for them to be set upon because those of us in this thread have set out some kind of covenant by which the word becomes taboo?
The “fight against ignorance” is not simply a matter of UK people accepting that they may offend and so swearing off using a particular word. It is also a matter of US people learning that the UK people do not mean to offend (at least in the way we’re talking about; clearly all insults are meant to offend on some level) and so reacting a little more cautiously than condemnation upon reading it.
That seems particularly important because the extremely unscientific poll in this thread implies that actually the UK usage is pretty common across a lot of the States too. So it isn’t just UK people that may be unfairly condemned here (in your head, if not on the screen), but actually a lot of your own countrymen.
So tell me: what ignorance are you trying to eradicate? Do you expect the aforementioned covenant to be somehow reached, with an addendum to the FAQ? Are you on a crusade to stop all UK people and a fair number of US people from using the word because it means something different to you than it does to them? Or are you just going to accept that people do not always mean what you think they mean and give them the benefit of the doubt?
Are you going to simply bear in mind that language sometimes divides rather than unites or are you going to turn your back on anyone who uses the word, regardless of intent?
I don’t think that anyone can win this game, because it isn’t just us playing it and we can never educate a hundred new people a day. I’d suggest that if it bothers you that much you point people to this thread with a note that the implications are more unpleasant for you than they might think and I’ll do likewise contrarywise.
Ironically, I think Zimbali actually said it best, though I don’t think that she actually intended my favoured end result:
Words to live by, I think.
pan
Yep. Here’s a perfect example. The user IMO Skid Row is a cunt and he continues to act cuntishly.
Some cultural references here:
“You’re a cunt” is a drinking game I’ve heard of. The players all get a drink and on a signal they drink up as fast as they can. Then whoever finished last gets nominated by whoever finished first to go up to some person in the bar and, without explanation before or after, say to them “You’re a cunt”. This generally leads to mayhem and is a great incentive to avoid being the slowest drinker.
A footballer, being penalised by the referee, says to him “Ref, if I called you a cunt you’d send me off, wouldn’t you?” “I certainly would,” says the ref. The player asks “How about if I just thought it?” “I don’t suppose there’s anything I could do about that.” “Good,” says the player. “In that case, ref, I think you’re a cunt.”
In the rough, beer-swilling, rugby-playing circles I used to move in, calling each other a cunt was acceptable repartee. Being called a cunt in anger was not. Calling a woman a cunt was considered out of the question, and even using the word in a woman’s hearing was dubious (I heard a friend apologise to a woman when he used it in the punchline of a joke: her response was “That’s OK, John, I think we all know what one is.”).
Follow-up question: Why is the word “fuck” considered more taboo than the word “bugger”, given that the taboo status of the two actions is definitely the other way around?
I have a habit of mixing the male and female genitalia references when I’m pissed off, calling the subject of my ire “Cuntybollocks”.
A personal favourite of mine, too.
Actually, I think the main reason for the popularity of the word cunt as an insult in england is you can use it when drunkenly addressing the police:
“good evening sir. Been drinking have we”
“zzzhh…indeed so, cuntstubble”
Doesn’t work too well up in scotland though, as it’s hard to mispronounce the word “officer” in any offensive way.
hihi
them Merrikens…one track mind…
Gary, I know that joke as
“Good cunting, evestable. I’m not as think as you drunk I am. In fact I am not under the affluence of incahol.”
Joke?
So you’re the bloke who it happened to! I always wondered.
Look, people asked what could possibly be construed as offensive about this word. I decided to try to explain my experiences with it.
My question is this. If you honestly want to learn, why query with a closed mind?
A question was asked, answered, and clarified. It’s finally come down to both sides understanding that there are cultural differences to account for. It’s come down to a “truce” of sorts. Those people who have read this thread, and are “established” dopers understand that to some on this board certain words are not to be thrown around lightly.
For those newcomers, once it is established that they are new, those who took offense will probably back down and apologize, and explain what happened. I have stated that when I hear the word used (in RL) I don’t throw a hissy fit, but that it does chafe me. I don’t use that word to insult at all, IRL or in the ether. Obviously this word has had much heated debate before I even came on the scene.
All I ask, is that those who realize (that to some of your fellow dopers, “cunt” is a foul word) try to refrain from using it lightly. That is all. A “truce” has been worked out with other words, this word obviously upsets people, why can’t it become one of “those words” too? Why not do this thing out of respect and kindness to those of us who get a bitter taste from the word? If there is a word on your part that is similar, tell me. I won’t use it in return.
blowero, you know perfectly well that I was stating how the word became a slur long ago in the mists of human history. I was not stating as to how genders actually behave, but how they are stereotyped. I don’t buy the bullshit any more than you do.
Question for you, and other males. If society is not supposed to look at gender and have preconceptions as to personality based on that, why is it that females who display the same assertive self assurance that is expected from males are frequently called bitches? (Thankfully the cultural significance of this word is changing, and that example is becoming the secondary usage.) You may not have seen this, I don’t believe you are one of “those types” of people. (Both males and females put down “alpha” type females)
Just because you haven’t personally seen a thing happen doesn’t change the fact that it happens in other places, at other times. The “doubting Thomas” attitude is at times not a bad thing, but it can only get you so far. Theoretical science, for instance has no room for “doubting Thomases”. Sometimes you have to suspend your disbelief and trust other’s perceptions to learn how to get along in a different culture.
Can’t you decide, that since several people in the history of this board have spoken up, and said the connotations of the word were abhorrant to them, that it must be true for them at least? As I said earlier, none of us are wrong on this. It’s an impasse. Can’t we agree to disagree, and still strive to be respectful to each other?
This is the sad reality for all too many females in this country at least, I’m not saying that is how it is there. Have you been to this nation, and this area in particular? If not, how can you tell we who live in it that it “can’t” be true, and that it’s bullshit? How can you say a thing didn’t/can’t happen if you didn’t see it?
Dangerosa and I live several states away, and yet we both have seen the same type of thing. In Dangerosa’s case, if she uses it as an insult, she loses her job immeadiately. In my case I saw a woman become shunned because a rival used it in a vicious smear campaign, along with specious allegations to back it up.
I don’t use dick lightly as an insult against guys, but many other members of the society around here do. I’ll comment on his personality/behavior instead of saying he’s nothing more than a sex organ. I personally use dick to refer to a guy who is not only consistently an inconsiderate jerk, but a liar, who will screw you over. That’s just me. I don’t use cursing insults lightly.
blowero, I can’t believe you have never seen some kind of smear campaign happen! You’ve never known of someone who’s reputation was damaged due to slander? Wow! I wish I were you. 
I’d love to have a life innocent enough to actually believe that if I’m a nice person, then that will outshine any nasty allegations flung at me. I agree, that your true friends will see through it. However, it can still make life difficult if you are damaged.
kabbes, first of all my name is ZABALI, pronounced Zuh-bah-lee.
To me, (and others whom I have seen use it) cunt is an insult that has a double edge. The first edge is stripping away that persons indivduality, and making them only a sex organ. It also implies, due to an ancient ingrained stereotype that the person is weak, and will be subjagated, they will submit and serve. The second edge throws in all kinds of unpleasant allegations as to her moral fiber.
In the case I saw, the smearer alleged that the woman neglected/beat her kids, did not keep herself or her house clean, that she was probably diseased, that she was promiscious and would have sex instead of cook dinner for her children.
The smearer stated that this person was a CUNT, and said “This story will PROVE it!”
I’ll paraphrase: She told the tale that she went to this person’s house which was filthy, the children were in dirty clothes, banged up and hungry, and the mother was having sex with her boyfriend instead of cooking dinner for her kids. The smearer commented on a “rotten snatch” smell coming from the woman. The diseased part also came in because her boyfriend was questionable. Her choice of mate also condemmed her. As in “Ew, she fucks THAT?!!”
Now, can you at least understand why to me that word is foul? If you had seen it used like that, wouldn’t you feel in a similar way? I’m being open, I’m not saying you are terrible because where you grew up the word had a different meaning/use. I’m just aking for kindness and respect. I offer mine in return.
=^…^=
No kabbes, I understand it needs to go both ways. I guess that’s all I’m kind of asking.
For those that unapologetically say “well, I’m going to keep using it” - that’s fine. I’d just like you to understand that you may offend at a level you don’t intend to. But that it is real - the word IS (regardless of the lack of logical sense) pretty darn icky to a lot of people - and the person getting offended doesn’t know your intent and has every right to get offended and call you on it. And then you can do the dance. Or not.
To the new posters who use cunt casually, they will learn - just like our sixteen year old posters learn that people here are offended by gay=stupid.
Malacandra, its interesting to hear that in your circles, using cunt within the hearing of a woman was unacceptable, even in the UK.
In times past in the UK amongst certain individuals, using ANY swearword in the presence of “the ladies” was considered unacceptable. Not just this one. Some people continue with such an attitude to this day.
Other than that, Dangerosa, I think we have an understanding.
Zabali, I apologise for getting your name wrong but no need to make a deal of it. Honestly, people have managed to screw up my name in unimaginable ways. I was going from memory.
Aside from that, I must say that it is a relief that you’re “not saying [I am] terrible because where * grew up the word had a different meaning/use.” Phew! That’s a relief for at least 60 million people then.
Sorry, facaetiousness is below me.
Yes, I understand that some words have a power in some cultural contexts that it doesn’t have in other ones. I don’t believe that I ever denied that, hmn? But unlike Dangerosa you still seem to be trying to insist that yours is the One True Way and that all who have not seen this Path are doomed to being called Terrible.
Instead, I’d suggest, your way forward would be to accept that words don’t always mean what you think they mean and, as I said, give the benefit of the doubt before the terrible-calling. After all, if the inflection meant is not the inflection you find insulting (hell - in this case it would seem that even the definition of the insult is different) then why should you be insulted?
FWIW I’ll make a mental note not to call you a cunt. Actually I find it enormously unlikely that I would have done anyway, since you don’t behave like the kind of person that I would call a cunt, but I’ll make the mental note anyway. I hope that satisfies you.
pan
That will teach me to replace the word “you” in a quote with the word “[I]”!
kabbes, that is no different than in the US.
In my house, kike and nigger and faggot were perfectly acceptible words with no negative connotations - that’s just how you referred to that type of person - thanks grandpa :rolleyes: But we referred to “chicken parts” and I can honestly say I was a senior in high school before I ever said “fuck” - and well into high school before I could hear the word without crying.
So where you grew up, “kike”, “nigger” and “faggot” had never been used as words of exploitation and violence, used to keep one group down?
Because unless you can answer that question in the positive, they are nothing at all like the word “cunt” in Britain in any way.
Honestly folks. Analogies are wonderous things. But to work they have to actually be analogous. Less of these red herrings would be somewhat useful.
pan
That’s just his circles… as I said, the most prolific user of the word that I know is a female friend of mine in London. All my UK female friends use it and are not offended by it.
kabbes, I was not meaning to come across as snarky as I did when I corrected my name. My apologies for the sting.
I believe you misconstrued my reactions in this thread. I was not calling anyone who lives in a different culture terrible for using a word that is a slur in my culture, or insisting that my way was “the one TRUE way”. If you look back through the thread, you will see that.
Thank you for making the mental note not to use that word to insult me.
1: I was responding to disbelief that the other posters expressed as to the fact that where I live that word is a terrible slur.
2: I said “No one is wrong” I meant it.
3: I am just asking that a courtesy be returned. I avoid using words and phrases that I know will upset people, and I’m asking that the sentiment be returned. (I understand about newcomers, and that people who use it casually may forget, I spoke of “exemptions” in more than one post.)
Here are some of my quotes from various posts in this thread:
Did you miss the next 2 quotes competely kabbes?
The above post does not ask for a complete ban of the word, just that care be used when “uttering” it.
That’s all I’m asking for, is that all sides make reasonable attempts to be civil.
kabbes, on preveiw I see your post. We understand that in the UK, the word “cunt” does not have the same connotation as in many parts of the US. That is not doubted in the least. Did you even read through the post in which I described in more detail the vile way the word “cunt” was used in a smear campaign? Did you try understand where I’m coming from?
As I said earlier:
Obviously, it’s understood that this works both ways. We have not said otherwise. In fact I have asked if there was any way I could reciprocate:
Do you see now, that in fact we actually agree, and have seemed to come to a “truce”?
=^…^=
Nope, I’m still not getting it.
From what you explained, the exchange went something like this:
Asshat said, “Sally has a filthy house.”
The masses responded, “I don’t believe you.”
Asshat then said, “Her kids are filthy and malnourished.”
“You lie.”
“And she is sleeping with an unkempt man whose health is questionable.”
“I can’t believe the words you say.”
“You don’t believe me?”
“No, we don’t.”
Asshat then proclaims, “Did I mention that she’s also a cunt?”
The masses then see the error of their ways, realizing that Asshat was telling the truth all along, and procede to ostracize Sally, and rightfully so, as she has now been attached to the C word.
Is that about right?
Could it possibly be that Asshat was merely being an asshat, and that the masses were idiots for buying in to it? Could it possibly be that the vicious smear campaign was the act of a mean spirited jerk, and not the fault of one little word? If the C word had not existed or not been used, would Asshat’s vicious attack been any less vicious?
I don’t blame the word “cunt” in this instance. It’s still just a word. I place the blame squarely on Asshat, who, with or without said word, is still a cu – er, is comparable to genitalia of one gender or the other, only far less pleasant to deal with.
Still, if you want to solely blame the C word, I guess that is your prerogative.
No, tdn that is not correct. I was in a group of friends, and this person’s name came up. The rival asserted that she was a cunt, and told her anecdote, which the others in the room swallowed hook and sinker, and repeated.
I privately did not believe it, but had nothing with which to refute her accusations. All I could do was to completely avoid the rival/smearer, and look for chances to help the victim. I certainly did not trust smearer after that. I’m one of the few who saw it though. The victim had to move to another county in order to get peace. She’s rebuilding now.
The point is, the societal definition of the slur “cunt” is almost exactly the contents of smearer/rival’s anecdote. The frequent intent behind it’s utterance around here is to destroy the person’s credibility/reputation.