I think we all understand that in our culture, certain behaviors and attitudes are considered indicative of homosexuality. For example, a man with a lisp who loves Judy Garland and interior decorating and is perpetually single will be assumed to be gay by many of his acquaintances.
The thing is, normally I would dismiss this conflation of certain behaviors with homosexuality as some form of heterocentric overly-broad trait attribution; i.e., the mindset would be, “well, a gay man is like a heterosexual woman in that he is primarily sexually attracted to men, so he must be like heterosexual women in other ways, like being emotional and liking clothes,” or whatever.
But, it seems like a lot of gay men and women really do engage in stereotypically gay behaviors (that are not directly linked to sex). Why is this? Is it a matter of many gay people choosing to behave in a certain way to identify themselves with a group? Or do the same factors that cause one to become gay also cause one to like other traditionally “gay” things?
If anyone is interested, the reason I became interested in this topic is because I was watching a “Toddlers and Tiaras” (I know, I know) clip show, here, and was reading online about how many people thought that parent #3, “Ava’s Dad,” must be a closeted homosexual. I have to say, that was my first thought as well; the man just loves making pageant dresses and teaching his two year old dance routines, etc. Basically, he is the epitome of a gay stereotype. But, he’s also married with three kids. I know that doesn’t mean he’s not gay, but why would we assume he is?
There’s this one gay guy at my work who comes to mind in this context. When he’s speaking to people he doesn’t know very well or who are “obvious” heterosexual males, he does not speak like a stereotypical gay male. There is no evidence of a lisp, or of a tone of voice that goes well with words like “fabulous” (for lack of a better description of the stereotypical gay speech mannerisms). However, the second one of his friends is around (read: most of the best looking females around the office), he switches to full-stereotypical-gay mode. The lisp comes out, the hand gestures kick right in, and his general tone of voice changes drastically.
When I worked in another part of the office, I saw him for years and never imagined for a second that he might be gay. One day, I had business in his part of the office and noticed that he had a Madonna picture on his desk. I must admit that this did cause me to wonder if he might actually be gay. After all, I’d be willing to bet that even Guy Ritchie didn’t have a picture of Madonna on his desk when they were married. Once I moved to that side of the office, I finally saw him talk to his friends and any doubt I may once have had was put to rest.
Despite seeing it all the time on television, I’ve only seen the over-the-top stereotype (you know the one) in men maybe two or three times in my life. I’m positive all two or three of those men were gay. Really gay.
I can’t help but roll my eyes when people insist that this stereotype doesn’t exist and that it’s impossible to determine that anyone is homosexual from how they dress and act. I’m sure that makes me a homophobe but I have gay friends. So it’s OK.
I’ve met plenty of gay people who fit the stereotypes, and plenty who didn’t. But for those gay men that did - Christ I can’t stand it. I find the stereotypical gay mannerisms and speech incredibly annoying. You’re gay. Awesome! You like to fuck men. I can get behind that, er… support that! You like interior decorating? Great! But please, think of the children, and drop the lisping and the hand waving and all the other shenanigans.
My WAG is that it’s a way to differentiate themselves, to mark themselves as gay. As most people are going to assume a person is heterosexual, as the majority of people seem to be, a homosexual needs in some way to signify that they are gay, so that other homosexuals will know this and approach them accordingly.
I’m not saying that all, or even most, or even a significant percentage of gays fall into the stereotype I mentioned. I’m saying that most people who are walking, talking flaming gay stereotypes, believe it or not, are most likely gay.
I guess I haven’t personally known enough gay men to really make a judgement . . . I’ve known personally maybe 5-6? Also, my best friend is a lesbian, and she definitely fits some stereotypes, although not all. Actually, now that I think about it, one of the guys who I know is gay really doesn’t act gay at all . . . really into politics, wears argyle a lot . . . knows a lot about fashion, but that’s really it.
However, I have never really met a “flamboyant” man who didn’t turn out to be gay. I can think of one guy I know who we all suspect but is not out of the closet, but all the rest (3-4) eventually came out. So I guess my question is not so much, “why are all gay men flamboyant,” but rather, “why are all flamboyant men gay?”
If you watch the link above, I think you’ll see what I’m getting at. Everyone assumes this man is actually gay, but why?
First, the OP seems to be asking why many gay people fit the stereotype. Now the thread seems to have turned to “Why do people look at the stereotype and assume: gay?” What is the question?
Because the original OP is obvious. You can see many examples of (pick your stereotype) and when you see a member of (group that fits the stereotype) doing it, it confirms your original bias.
To be fair, I’ve never seen a white person in Church’s Chicken. I once saw a commercial for them and it had all these white people in it - it was hilarious. Way to miss the market, guys.
Interesting area we’re getting into here. Where it interests a gender-atypical str8 dood like myself is slightly to one side of the OP’s issue: namely, the correlation between being homosexual and non-stereotypically “gay” behaviors.
As someone who is into the culture of the 1920s to 50s era - pop, material, technology, what have you - I have always known that it attracts a large number of gay males. Some of it falls under stereotypical categories - Art Deco is part of interior design, and movie musicals and dramas helped form the sensibility called camp - but some of it I’m still trying to figure out.
For instance, I’m a recovering jazz collector - a mostly straight, but subcultural, avocation. From there I got into what you might call “commercial” vintage music, the mainstream pop sound of the 78 era. There I found that collectors were a) an even smaller* sub-*subculture and b) very commonly, if not largely, gay males. And yes, I was “recruited” - musically - by one, as were several other str8s in the local record fraternity.
Something similar happens in historic building preservation - except it is apparently more private territory. This author explores the phenomenon but his reasons for it seem simplistic and self-justifying. A gay preservationist himself, he’s more of a cheerleader than an investigator. The book does an unusual thing: it actually reinforces stereotypes and tries to extend them into a not-so stereotypical activity. (I don’t know, maybe it’s just a “closet stereotype” that has been kept in the community.)
This is really interesting to me. I guess you’re a counterexample; like you were saying, you’re a straight man who engages in many traditionally, “gay,” pastimes.
Guilty as charged. What I’m more interested in, though, is what makes some pastimes “less than obviously” gay-coded. That could potentially raise questions about psychosexual identity that would really mess up the queer theorists.
Y’know, most people I meet, I have no real clue as to their sexual orientation (especially if we’re talking just people I see on the street, as opposed to people I might say I know). I have no way of knowing if I have anything resembling “gaydar”, since I have no way to calibrate it. But what I think happens all too often is a bit of circular thinking: A person will see someone who exhibits gay stereotypes, or otherwise trips their “gaydar”. The observer will then assume, based on those stereotypes, that said person is gay. And since the person now has yet another example of someone they assume to be gay, and that person exhibits the stereotypes, the stereotype gets reinforced.
You can even see this in this thread: “There’s this guy I know, that all of my friends are convinced is gay, but he’s not out of the closet”. You know he’s a closeted homosexual because he acts gay, and you know that acting that way is gay because he’s gay, and that’s how he acts.
Isolated subcultures tend to develop their own internal social rituals. Partially this is from simple divergent cultural evolution, partially from a desire to reinforce group solidarity and create a sense of being separate and special from mainstream culture.
Gay culture spent a long time underground, largely because for a long time it was illegal to act on homosexual desires, so it’s not surprising that it should have evolved a large number of social practices that are different from the mainstream. But there’s no causal link between these practices and homosexual desire, any more than there’s a causal link between quoting The Princess Bride and the sort of general social awkwardness that leads someone to identify with geek subculture.
But whatever the percentage of gays that “flames” or is stereotipically gay, of we look into the stereotipically gay as a group we’d find a much highier number of gays than in the general population.
