I’m starting to volenteer at a local gay teen meeting place, and I got a call from the acting director to set up an interview. On the phone he sounded almost stereotypical and it made me uncomfortable. I wasn’t sure why then, so I decided to sit down and puzzle out why now, before I actually meet him.
I came to the conclusion that having a gay guy act like that (and no, I don’t KNOW he is, but it seems a reasonable conclusion) made me uncomfortable in the same was a black person who was “No sur, massuh, I don know nothin’” all the time would also. That lead me to wonder if there are actually gay men who act like the “comedy gays” for lack of a better term that I’ve seen in movies and TV. I’ve met some gay men before, and they didn’t act that way; is that manner and way of speaking attractive to some people?
Note: Anything that sounds judgemental in this post isn’t meant to be at all. I’m honestly curious about this, because it would seem that not acting this way would reduce the possibility of people reacting negatively to you(unless that’s what you want, then ok ; I’d see it as a woman who wears skimpy clothes: as long as you understand the reaction you’ll get, go right to it). I’ll still volenteer regardless of the way this guy acts, and I’ll do my best to overcome this weird reaction I had. And if it matters, no, I’m straight.
I have had frequent discussions on this subject with a gay male friend of mine, and I find the topic interesting. (Note: I am not, in actual fact, a gay man, although I do play one on TV.) Apologies if I appear to be speaking for all gay men–I’m working only with my (possibly flawed) understanding of what one person has told me, and I quite realize that he may well not be representative of gay men as a whole.
As I understand it, there are two primary reasons why he uses mannerisms that might well be considered stereotypically gay:
Pride! After Oscar Wilde and handkerchief codes and Stonewall and all that sort of thing, there’s a hope that gay folks can be accepted by “mainstream society” and not be oppressed, beaten, etc. This friend of mine feels proud to be gay, and in today’s current climate he feels relatively safe expressing it in the manner in which he sees fit (even though it can still be an iffy proposition in many places), so he does. This also seems to be tied in to some desire to mesh with gay culture? But I can’t really expound on that theme with any kind of clarity, so I won’t even try.
Errrr, getting dates. Whether this is an actual motivation for stereotypically gay mannerisms or simply a pleasant side effect, I’m not sure, but this friend of mine has frequently stated to me the self-evident fact that if one acts stereotypically gay, one is far more likely to attract attention from potential sexual partners–not so much guessing, subterfuge, sidelong looks, etc.
Again, I apologize for any potential offense caused by this post. I’m conveying the best I can the feelings that have been expressed to me by one gay male friend of mine, but I realize that my understanding may be incomplete and that he does not constitute a statistically valid sampling size.
Most of my gay friends don’t want to date effeminate guys. I’ve often wondered, do these type usually date other effeminate types, or more masculine gays?
Some of us are femme or flaming because we like to be. It’s not my responsibility if someone decided to make a stereotype out of it. I’m not conforming to the stereotype; it’s conforming to me.
And I’ve really had to put up with quite a bit of shit for this. As you suggest, people really seem to get their hate on for gender-non-conforming males - not just straight homophobes but queer ones too. I’ve had to deal with way too much “why do you feel the need to act like that”/“you just think that’s how all gay men have to act”/“you’re embarrassing gay people”/“if I wanted a woman, I’d be straight.” It’s extremely tiresome, but I’m long over asking forgiveness for being who I am, and I didn’t refuse to let straight people tell me to gender-conform just to turn around and let queer people do the same.
Why do we have to explain why, and other people don’t have to explain their mannerisms? Is it because a man would never behave in such a way unless he had a good excuse?
I’ve known many, many a gay man in my lifetime, and the ones who were flamboyant were just being themselves - that is just who they are. They didn’t, for example, see people like Jack on *Will and Grace * as being the same as them, he was a different, weird, fictional entity. Each and every one of them, for all their “flamer” habits, were their own individual person, with their own wonderful personalities. They weren’t conforming to any specific image, they were just being the only person they knew how to be: themselves. And for most of them, it’s been a long fight to be able to act the way they wanted to, because straight people and gay people alike would make fun of them. This burns me the hell up. Who’s to say anyone but you is a spokesperson for who you are? It pisses me off when a woman bitches at me for not being “feminist” enough, just because I was born with a clit and two tits. Why should a gay man demand another gay man act a certain way? Why should anyone demand anything of anyone? Grr. Sorry, my panties are bunching. Let me straighten those out. Ahem. [sub]Ooooh, that feels better. [/sub]
Once you meet this guy, talk to him. Get to know him a little better. You’ll see that he’s no stereotype at all. You may get along with him, and you may not, but it won’t be because he is a stereotype of anything.
And my little rant wasn’t directed at anyone here specifically, I just got rolling. I’m an individualist. I break stereotypes. I hates me a wide paintbrush.
I wasn’t suggesting that he was a stereotype of anything, simply that the way he spoke **reminded ** me of those. That’s all. I’m sure he doesn’t have a set of plates with men playing leapfrog on it, for example. Or maybe he does. Anyway, my point was, the reaction I had to the way he spoke, and what I thought about it, and why.
matt, I’m not saying you, or anyone, should act any way that isn’t the way you are. If you want to be flaming, feel free to be the gay Human Torch. My only question was why some gay men act this way (and now it occurs to me that the same “situation” holds true with lesbians that act butch). That has been answered, and I admire those people for acting that way knowing that they are inviting abuse from others. I hope that I didn’t offend you, ( I don’t THINK I did) and thanks for sharing. I tried to word it so I didn’t come off sounding like someone peering into a fishtank at the aquarium.
Consider the possibility that the behavior you see is what you get when that particular man stops trying to imitate the kind of man he is not.
I’m sure you’ve worked in jobs where you deal with the public and, in so doing, you put on an artificial cheerful persona, where you pretend to be courteous and helpful and patient, and so forth. It’s not you but it’s how your work-society expects to act so you’ll fit in.
When you go home you relax and be yourself.
I don’t look on flamboyant stereotypical behavior as the adoption of unnatural mannerisms but the shedding of them. Not a gay man myself, just my perspective, etc.
I’ve known tons of “flamboyant” gay men in my time, and there are two things about these guys that always strike me: first, they’re far stronger than you think. Gender nonconformists always get a load of shit from both in and out of the gay community, and they know how to deal with it. Really, they’re on the frontlines of all the homophobia being dealt out-- and I include butch women in that. We don’t get nearly the kind of shit effeminate gay men do (and I mean effeminate as a compliment; our culture devalues the feminine to a sickening extent). Second, they’re funnier than hell. I think it’s an adjustment to getting all this gruff from the world.
Yeah, these are stereotypes and all mileages will vary. But I can safely say that as a “butch” woman, down to the suit & tie, that I am just far more comfortable that way. I put on a dress, and, to quote Karen Ripley, I hear “who’s that dyke in a dress?” Manolo Blahnicks bore me. But I spasm over a new pair of Carolina boots.
Thanks to those who attempted to answer the OP’s question, because I think it’s a good one. The OP tiptoed around eggshells to disclaim any intention to offend, and never once did he say that gays should not act effeminately, but merely that it made him uncomfortable, and he’s trying to examine why. These “I’m just being myself” responses are all well and good, but what’s the difference between a gay man just being himself, and a redneck man just being himself, or a fundamentalist man just being himself? If just being oneself is a blanket immunization against any and all examination, then I submit that people should stop making fun of Jack Chick tracts and gun totin’ men with beer bellies. Lest anyone say that gay men can’t help who they are while fundamentalist men and redneck men can, I say bullshit. People make choices, yes, but to say that a man — *any * man — could be something other than what he is is to deny that man’s own life experience. Clearly, a man cannot choose whether he is attracted to a penis or a boob, but he can choose whether he walks with a swagger or a swish. The question is not why does he chose a penis when he could chose a boob, it is why does he choose a swish when he could choose a swagger.
I’m actually going to come here and apologise, though I slapped a disclaimer at the end of my post, because it seems to appear I was attacking someone, or the OP, and that’s not what I was doing. I was rambling, babbling, and thinking aloud - in other words, hijacking. My apologies for that, I should have been clearer. I did not answer the OP, I was chatting with myself.
Not being a gay man, but a femmy, bi, married woman… uh. I don’t qualify to answer. I could call up my flaming brethren and ask them, though.
Let me reword that: that’s not what I had intended to do. Looking over my post, it looks like I offered up some kind of lame-ass advice - I’m not sure why I wrote that, since that’s not at all what was being asked. My panties were bunched, it’s hard to think when that’s happening! :smack:
IIRC there was thread once that inquired about the everyday fabulousity ( or lack thereof) of being gay. There were some respondents that indicated they were somewhat more fabbo than the average bear, but a substantial proportion of gay men responded that they’re very much “guy” guys in lifestyle and behavior with the exception of their sexuality, and aren’t queeny at all, and in fact some were pretty put off by these feminine mannerisms if taken to extremes.
As one of the people who said, in effect, they’re just being themselves, I have to answer here.
Redneck men and fundamentalist men have role models who help define their behavior, and societies in which to act which affirm and support those behaviors. I don’t think they’re being themselves all the time, but being the kind of men their society expects them to be. People do this far more than they’d like to admit, I’d wager.
I can’t say where gay men get their role models, so I didn’t speak to that. I was just trying to say, “This is why they don’t act like every other man you see,” but not why they chose that particular avenue of expression.
Hollywood: Joan, Elizabeth, Ava, Greta, Cher, Audrey, Liza, Barbara & many others.
As Liberal suggested, if rednecks model their behaviour after their heroes, surely some gay men do the same to various degrees. I also think that just as there is room for the leather/macho clad stereotype, there is also room for the more effette end of the spectrum. Both are popular and probably very effective ways to attract a partner within one’s own sphere of behavioural preference. And yes, I believe one chooses to accentuate a swish or a swagger depending on one’s proclivity and ability to attract a partner.
Going with the “being themselves” theme, I think part of it is that some guys, gay or straight, just naturally have some of the personality traits associated with flamboyant gay dudes. The straight or closeted gay guys are probably just less likely to embrace this aspect of their personalities because of it’s “gay” connotations. I’ve known a couple of completely straight men who act very flamboyant, but are happily married, so it’s definitely not an exclusively gay thing; just rarer in straight guys. On the other hand, openly gay guys who have some stereotypically gay attributes may just be more likely to say “what the hell” and go with it–after all, if they’re already out and subject to any abuse that may come their way as a result, why go to the effort of trying to act “straight” if it’s not who they really are?
A vaguely similar example of this applies to me. I’m fairly open about my bisexuality, and pretty damned femme for the most part. One thing I can’t stand, though, is shaving my legs with any regularity; they’re not very hairy, and I almost never wear shorts or skirts, so really, what’s the point? Back when I labeled myself as straight, though, I was careful to never let anyone see my unshaven legs (and dude, you’d have to be starting pretty closely at my sexy, sexy legs be able to tell this)-- being called a dyke and constantly asked if I was a lesbian wasn’t cool. These days, I don’t care so much about that. I mean, if people already know I’m bi and comfortable with it, it kind of takes the bite out of calling me a dyke because my legs occasionally have a little fuzz left on them, no?
As a correlary to the above, let me ask another question. I recently got flamed on another website, because I said that an actor who was very flamboyant but professed to be straight was less likely to be a closeted gay man, since if he was closeted I would expect him to make an effort to appear more stereotypically masculine. In other words, if he was trying to act straight he would try hard to assume more classically “straight” mannerisms whereas since he was comfortable in being effeminate, it might indicate that he was comfortable with who he was.
I was told in no uncertain terms that some gay men cannot help how they appear and no matter how hard they try to appear masculine, will appear flamboyant to many people. I was accused of insulting all gay people by assuming that they had any control over how masculine or femme they acted.
Given that there is a spectrum of gay men, is this true? Is there such a thing as a flamboyant gay man who might want to appear more stereotypically conservative but by nature cannot?
You personally didn’t, and I didn’t mean to tear a strip off of anyone in this thread. I understand why you asked the question and I’m happy to answer it.
What does bother me is a culture in which we *think to ask * why some men are femme. Like I said - the assumption is that no man would act like that unless there were a good reason.
Excellently put.
The question is, why is there any question at all? What do you care if someone swishes when they could swagger? Why is the question even presented like that, as though someone must have a good reason for doing something so bizarre and disturbing as being femme?
If the question were phrased sensibly, it would be something like, “Why do some people swish and others swagger?” And the answer would be: because people are different.
Oh yes, what you are reporting is another thing I don’t like - the sort of automatic response of “see, I’m not femme, in fact I don’t like femme guys, so please don’t be homophobic.”
There are plenty of guys for whom femme guys aren’t their cup of tea. Fantastic. The problem for me arises when this is said to try to ingratiate themselves to someone. I hear it all the time and it’s annoying, especially when it happens in some sort of anti-homophobia context - “educating” and “fighting stereotypes” by dumping on a segment of the community and the whole idea of gender freedom.
I’m not going to say why this is, but I really cannot pull off butch that well, even when I’m trying. My voice goes up or I laugh too high or my wrists flex at an improbable angle. The butchest I ever get is when I’m trying to put together IKEA furniture, and – well, you know.
Well, of course, there we need to make the distinction between unfamiliar behaviour and antisocial behaviour. When you say “just being himself,” you’re conflating different things here: personal characteristics (religion, beer bellies) with opinions (Chick tracts) and actions (carrying guns) that, arguably, affect others; whereas a femme man’s being femme affects no one but himself, unless he makes a particularly dramatic gesture and knocks over someone else’s Etruscan vase.
I intended to essentially make the same argument. Stereotypes are everywhere and invade every walk of life. I do not begrudge anyone’s right to be themselves and express themselves however they choose, however I think it’s irresponsible for people to accuse anyone who finds those expressions off-putting as being prejudiced.
A black man acting out every hip-hop, thug life stereotype complete with gold caps and an Alpha-male atttude can be annoying and threatening to others.
A teenage princess from the valley complete with the Porsche, snapping bubble gum and myopic view of the world through Gucci shades can be more than a little grating to the more enlightened folks she bullies on the way to her super sweet sixteen.
An insufferable Harvard edjucated snob with a pedigree and self-important air of entitlement is going to rub most middle class drones the wrong way.
I’m not sure any of them are doing anything different than being who they are. In all of those cases they can be more or less genuine. All are certainly influenced by their culture, the media around them and have ulterior motives. Regardless, for anyone to portray a gay man being stereotypically flabmoyant as a an act of great social impact is sorely misplaced. To villianize someone who finds the overly stereotypical and typically theatrical mannerisms as discomforting is really selfish.
Do what you like so long as it doesn’t hurt anyone, but don’t act like someone not accepting it is an act of hate. People can be annoyed with another person for no greater reason than they fact they are distracting or constantly becoming the center of attention. By no means is a person expected to be a conformist, but nonconformists of any ilk are by definition going to not be embraced by all. And that’s OK.
; I’d see it as a woman who wears skimpy clothes: as long as you understand the reaction you’ll get, go right to it). I’ll still volenteer regardless of the way this guy acts, and I’ll do my best to overcome this weird reaction I had. And if it matters, no, I’m straight.
Whether this is an actual motivation for stereotypically gay mannerisms or simply a pleasant side effect, I’m not sure, but this friend of mine has frequently stated to me the self-evident fact that if one acts stereotypically gay, one is far more likely to attract attention from potential sexual partners–not so much guessing, subterfuge, sidelong looks, etc.
