The thing that makes me think she’s not that significant (whether as someone we already heard about in disguise or as a new character) is that we kind of completely lose her when they leave the barge. Once they’re off the river, does she even show up again?
She arrives with Young Griff at Griffin’s Roost on the last page of the last Connington chapter. She didn’t have any more lines at that point but she’s still present.
Thanks. It’s only been a few months since I read it but the details are already fading…
I’m not sure Ned has to be lying to himself. In a story where folks can change their appearance, it’s possible for Ned to remember someone looking like his sister dying–or even giving birth–while she is alive somewhere else.
I don’t think it likely, but the possibility is there.
The very thinnest possibility. It’s not like there are hordes of face dancers or shape shifters running around Westeros. The Faceless Men are few, and I can’t really see any reason for any of them to be pretending to be Lyanna Stark. Magic, at the time of the events at the Tower of Joy, for all intents and purposes doesn’t work anymore. You’d have to go REALLY far afield to find any logical explanation for Ned not to recognize that someone who appeared to be his own sister wasn’t.
Martin is capable of coming up with very clever explanations and interpretations of ambiguous events, but I can’t see Lyanna not being Lyanna.
Maybe the whole thing is a dream!
Seriously, if Lyanna can be alive, then anything can happen. Tyrion can magically grow a thousand feet tall and shoot fireballs out of his cock. That’d make about as much sense.
Let’s count all the fakeout deaths and/or resurrections that GRRM has pulled out of his hat:
Beric Dondarrion - though I’m not sure if the reader is ever supposed to think he dies for real
Catelyn Stark - reborn as Lady Stoneheart, patron saint of laryngitis
Brienne of Tarth - hung but not really, mysteriously meets Jaime
Theon Greyjoy - reborn as Reek, then rereborn as Theon, though the second rebirth does not follow death, merely life-affirming experiences
Asha Greyjoy - gets struck in the head with apparently lethal force… but not really. Welcome to Stannis’ winter wonderland death march.
Aegon Targaryen? - supposedly dead, but actually raised by Uncle Connington. May be a “mummer’s dragon” and/or Illyrio’s son
Bran & Rickon Stark - murdered at Winterfell, soap opera style (i.e. replaced by two nobodies while absconding in the night)
Tyrion Lannister - falls into the river of Really Bad Shit and seems to be on his way to see papa “shits not gold” Tywin. Something in the back of my head tells me that Tyrion has been in another fakeout death moment, but I can’t remember…
Davos Seaworth - assumed dead after the Battle of Blackwater, but was merely a castaway
Daenerys Targaryen - is seen being carried off and burned alive by her pet infanticidal dragon. The reader is never meant to be really fooled so much as just encouraged to pretend that she’s dead to be able to get into the heads of those hanging out in Mereen who think it’s a real possibility.
Jon Snow - come on, GRRM, we all know he’s not dead.
Let me know if I’ve missed any. Sure seems like stealing people away from the Grim Reaper is as fun for Martin as nipples on a breastplate… Book 7 will just have every POV character’s chapter end with a sword/axe/arrow about to hit their face.
And again, mentioned as dead offscreen in AFFC (I think), but it turns out to be a ploy of Manderly’s in ADWD.
Maybe at the big battle of King’s Landing.
The Hound hit Arya in the head with an axe. And reports of his own death were likely exaggerated.
And of course, FrankenGregor.
Azhara Dayne had violet eyes. There are several descriptions of Lenore in the books, you’d think something like that would get mentioned. Obviously, it would be a dead giveaway if it was but it makes no sense that someone who is thinking about her would not notice.
Nice, thanks. Adding to the list:
Arya Stark - Fakeout death at the hands of the Hound
Gregor Clegane - Reborn as FrankenGregor aka Robert Strong
Mance Raydar - Executed by Jon Snow, but managed to R’hllor out of the way
This is kinda getting ridiculous. We’re getting to the point where most of the still-living main characters have had a fakeout death or been ressurected in some way.
I’m not sure if I should zombiefy this thread or start a new one, but I just read this thread all the way through and have some thoughts so I figure this is as good a place as any to share.
I am late to the party on the whole ASoIaF series and have very little knowledge of all the angst, speculation and general tenor of the fans of the series. Obviously I don’t share all the baggage that comes with waiting a decade for this book like many of you. I picked up the first book when I started seeing ads for the HBO series and ended up loving it intensely and reading all 5 books straight through up until yesterday when I finished A Dance with Dragons. In short, I liked it.
The long answer is a little more complicated. I have read and mostly agreed with all the criticisms voiced in this thread. The last two books did lack a certain focus and the plot progression seemed to meander somewhat. All fair criticism. I too found the chapters with Oberyn somewhat uninspired and the Tyrion chapters were way out of character for him, he’s just way too angsty for what we’ve seen thus far. I’ve never been very interested in the Dany chapters even going back to Thrones, and these chapters were probably the most difficult to get through of anything I read over the last 6+ months. But all that said, I don’t want them edited out. It’s still Martin’s voice which I like and the books have been generally so unpredictable that having this stuff included keeps me on my toes. There were sections that were repetitive but I don’t think the overall story would have been improved from a tighter focus on the Wall or Winterfell or Kings Landing.
If I have any issue it’s with the choice that Martin made in having Dany’s trek across the free cities being to long and telling so much of it. Personally I’d have been happier with the story remaining in Westeros and having only short sojourns to other lands to set up events. But, when Martin decided to delve into Dany and Drogo and Jorah in Thrones he made that commitment. It’d be silly if he would have the neglected it in this book or the others before. Westeros is the most interesting place and fans of the genre are far more accepting of medieval settings, quasi-Arabic settings simply don’t resonate with fans of the genre in the same way. It’s a big world, it’s going to take a while to explore it all, it’s tough to hit a home run every time. I accept this, and even when I was bored with the characters and settings I was still enjoying the language, sense of uncertainty and curiosity about the events to come.
As for some of the complaints and observations here, I’ll try and address them individually.
[ul]
[li]Jon Snow’s final decision to abandon the Wall wasn’t a break in character to me. He saw Bolton as a threat to the Wall and he wasn’t acting selfishly. Jon was always uncertain about his duty and constantly debated what was the right choice. He let the wildlings through the wall because he believed it was the best choice for the realm in the long run. Marching south is the same, to secure the realm he must secure his rear and ensure he has allies to supply him nearby. [/li][li]Dany’s decision to stay in Merreen was out of character. Martin does a decent job of acknowledging this in the book but having Selmy consider her age and how unpredictable that would make her. However both bedding Daario and being pacifistic to a fault are in opposition of everything we’ve seen from her thus far. That said, this might be necessary based on Martin’s vision of how this all plays out. [/li][li]No way Tyrion gets so sappy and idiotically self-destructive over Tysha. The guy has already mourned that and the admission of Jamie wouldn’t undo that. Tyrion has said that you need to have a tough skin in this world as a dwarf, his woe as me act was painful to listen to. I expect that from Sansa and even Theon, but not Tyrion. [/li][li]I completely missed the Mance/Abel connection. I don’t know how I could have, it’s so obvious now. However in my defense, didn’t Abel pop up in the story before/immediately after he was sent out from the Wall? The timeline didn’t seem to allow for Mance to have made it into the Bolton host before they were fortified in Winterfell. [/li][li]Bran joining the Children of the Forrest sorta fell flat for me. It was just a little too mystical and immaterial for my taste. It seemed a waste and a unsatisfying payoff for such a long storyline. Meera and Jojen are good characters and they are pretty much done now and Bran as a heart tree’s eyes seems to be a pretty useless outcome. Unless Bran is somehow expected to merge the greenseer and skinchanger powers in some new, amazing way that will turn the tide against the Others it seems pointless, and when that happens I fear it will seem like a deus ex machina. [/li][li]Coldhands is Benjen Stark right? Seems like this point has really been underplayed. Will he play a role in this beyond escorting Bran? [/li][li]How many different rumors and theories have been hinted at in the books regarding Jon Snow’s parentage? A few have been mentioned in this thread, but I feel like there’s more. [/li][li]It seems like a zombie war is coming, we’ve got Ice Zombies spawned by the Others and we’ve got Fire Zombies revived by the red priests. [/li][li]How are all the religions going to shake out? The Seven seem to be mostly meaningless as is the Drowned God. However the Old Gods have some real powers as seen with Bran and the Red God also seems to be at least partly legit. The Maesters of the Citadel seem to be trying to conjure up something too which might or might not be connected to the rest. The Red priests are actively destroying the other gods even though is seems as if the Old Gods are at least nominally opposed to the Others as well. [/li][li]What are all the different prophecies? They don’t really resonate with me when reading, those mystical chapters tend to cause my mind to wander. I still have no clue where Quaithe came from and what the hell was going on in that whole house of shadows section a few books back. I know the red god has spewed some stuff of varying accuracy, which ones fall into the big prophecy category? What have the Maesters worked up so far? [/li][li]Varys killed Kevan ostensibly because he was too smart and would do too good of a job running the kingdom. Basically he wants the Targaryens back because they will unify the realm again so anything that screws things up until that point benefits him. Killing Kevan factors into that. Does that mean that Varys probably wanted Tyrion to kill Tywin too? Similar case could be made for that. What about Ned? Do we think Varys played a role in getting Ned killed? Perhaps he knew that Neds death would lead to this bloodshed and advised Joffrey to kill him. He certainly could have saved Ned the same way he saved Tyrion and chose not to. [/li][/ul]
Well, I suppose I’m rambling. I feel like I had 20 more points I wanted to make in response to comments in this thread but I’ll leave it be for now since half of you have probably moved on and forgotten about it.
Nah it’s all good, we’re probably in for another 5 year wait for *Winds of Winter * anyway se we may as well speculate away. By the way there’s a sample chapter of that up on GRRM’s website (Link to my thread from yesterday)
I’m in broad agreement with most of your points; except the following:
- re Tyrion, I found his collapse into self-pitying drunkenness quite believable. He’s been through a hell of a year or so (nearly dying in two battles, horribly disfigured and then (justifiably IMHO) killing his mistress and father). Who wouldn’t snap after such a ride?
-I personally think all the Jon’s parentage stuff is fan-created myself. I didn’t see much in the books when I first read through them that displaces the Ned + Wylla ancestry. Martin may well adopt one of the theories as he concludes the series but I think it wasn’t there when he wrote Game of Thrones. I kind of hope he doesn’t.
-I’ve got no idea how the religions will play out, but I do love what Martin’s done with them so far. While we haven’t seen the Seven overtly do anything, the rise of their followers has already played a big part in the fall of Cersei, and will no doubt be important in the books to come. As for the Drowned God, I’m admittedly in a minority here in that I actually enjoy the Iron-born storyline, but Damphair looks to me to be the most powerful priestly type after Melisandre in the series so far.
-I never connected Varys to Ned’s execution, if anything I thought he was surprised as anyone with Joffrey’s viciousness. Kevan’s killing came as a shock ot me - I don’t recall ever seeing Varys getting his own hands dirty before. Didn’t Illyrio basically set out his and Varys’ plan to Tyrion in the last book?
Will check it out.
His entire life has been hell. He wasn’t distraught or miserable when he was at court watching Cersei and Joffrey run the show and make a mock of him and he wasn’t miserable when he was laying in bed recovering from his axe to the face. He basically went from a put upon victim of circumstance, resigned to his fate and not especially self-loathing when sitting in his cell to a complete whiny bitch after Jamie told him Tysha was no whore. I mean, yeah it’s a dick move, but Tyrion got his revenge on his father for it. This is a chick he hasn’t seen in 20+ years and a piece of truth that doesn’t materially change anything. It simply means that his father did something cruel and evil toa girl who loved him as opposed to a girl who was complicit in tricking him. Sucks for her, but that just means that Tyrion’s life was marginally less awful and hopeless than he previously thought.
Long story short, Tyrion drinking himself to death makes perfect sense. His pining for this chick totally doesn’t. His resolving himself to death makes sense, his having affection for the dwarf girl doesn’t.
Ned was really aggressive about shouting down anyone who even broached the topic of the mother. The topic was absolutely verboten. From the very start of Thrones it had an air of mystery about it, and Ned’s actions gave it the clear implication that it had more significance than just simple shame. It’s a secret and Martin played it up from the get go. I really don’t think he’s making this one up as he’s going along. In the books it seems like a red herring or a theory is voiced in every book by a different POV character. Jon’s definitely someone important, I just wonder which of the story told so far have any merit or if a new one will come out later that is the real one.
How’s Damphair been powerful? He’s drowned some guys and then basically given them CPR after. Hardly powerful. He’s demanded a Kingsmoot from a bunch of god fearing rubes. What exactly has he done that demonstrates any power at all? If anything the Crowseye has been more powerful. Certainly the Faceless Men and Undying Ones have demonstrated more.
Varys said to Ned in the cell that he serves the realm by way of apology. Far to similar a comment to what he said to Kevan to not at least make a guess at a connection.
If you haven’t yet read the short stories “the hedge knight” “the sworn sword” and “the mystery knight”. They are set about 100 years in the past and help fill in a LOT of the backstory regarding the Targaryens and historical events referenced in the main books. Also you get to find out who the greenseer is.
Where can one find them?
Avoiding block quotes:
Tyrion I took the truth about Tysha to be the straw that broke Tyrion’s back. He’s had one moment of untarnished love and joy in his life, which his father told him was all a lie, so he adopted his sardonic manner (which we all love) as a coping response. But now Jaime’s told him what he experienced with Tysha was real all along and it completly breaks him. His obsession with ‘where whores go’ in Dance strikes me as a desperate (and probably forlorn) attempt to get back what he’s lost all those years ago. I think his pining for Tysha does make sense in these terms, but admittedly it’s a matter of interpretation.
His growing affection for Penny also makes sense to me as well. She’s suffered the loss of her brother indirectly because of Tyrion, she’s a genuinely nice person who he can help and so he falls for her at a time when he’s pretty much a shattered man. It all seems very believable to me.
Jon’s parents: I initially put down Ned’s vehemence down to his being excessivly duty-bound, any mention of his past failings is unbearable for him. There are lots of hints at other parentage though, so you’re almost certainly right to say that Ned and Wylla aren’t his parents.
Damphair I made a mistake about Damphair, you’re quite right - apart from CPR he hasn’t done anything overtly miraculous. I misremembered the horn blowing thing - it’s the horn that Euron brought back that was the magical thing at the Kingsmoot. I think he’s still a player we’ll see more of though.
Varys Again you’re right - I’d forgotten about his conversation with Ned, and it’s similarity to his comments to Kevan. I still don’t think Varys was complicit in his death though - certainly in his fall from grace, but his death was all Joffrey’s doing IMHO.
I was actually kind of glad to see this thread revived.
GRRM definitely dropped hints about Jon’s parentage in AGOT. At the very least, he shrouded the whole subject in so much mystery that we certainly couldn’t take Ned’s word for it. Now, I’m one who said, “now way!” when I initially heard the rumor about Ned’s sister being Jon’s mother and the Targaryan being the father. (Wow, I forgot a lot of names already). But after going back and reading the passage in Thrones where Ned is having flashbacks while he’s injured, it seems fairly obvious that his sister had just had a child when he went to rescue her.
And, I’m also curious about where the best collection of Hedge Knight stories can be found. Is there one book with all the short stories? It looked like on Amazon the stories were scattered about within a few different collections. I’d definitely love to get my hands on a Hedge Knight anthology if such a thing exists.
There’s no collection of them. They are scattered in several anthologies. The best way to find them, IMHO is through the library. I borrowed all 3 anthologies (Legends, Warriors, and Warriors II, IIRC?) from my local inter-library loan system, and didn’t have to track down hard to find books and buy whole anthologies for a single story.
I would be shocked if they didn’t collect them eventually, but I think he’s still got one more coming out soon.
Actually he did say after the next one came out there would be an anthology.