I believe that if I or someone else pointed this out to President Biden, he would, after giving it some thought, apologize and try harder. If I or someone else mentioned it to Trump, he’d freak out yelling about woke and building a wall.
He’s very concerned.
They have done something illegal. The issue is whether this makes them, as human beings, illegal.
I think calling a human being an illegal is indeed a slur. I wish Biden hadn’t used the term; at least, without obvious quote marks around it.
But I also noticed what else Biden had to say on the subject. Some of which was indeed about wanting the power to shut down the border – but most of which was about wanting to be able to work through the waiting lists a whole lot faster. Which means that he expects a lot of those people on the waiting lists to be admitted – otherwise, there’s no need to work through the lists, if everybody’s just going to be tossed out anyway. And most of the rest of what he had to say was along the lines of ‘most of us came from somewhere else originally. And we’re all real Americans.’ (Not a direct quote.)
It’s possible that he used the word “illegal” to refer to a human deliberately, because he’s trying to talk to people who do use it and get them to listen. It’s possible that in the middle of an improvisation that was part of a long rapid-fire speech he used it as accidental shorthand. And I do note that he used it to refer to a specific human who, I gather, actually had entered the country in an illegal fashion; not in any way to refer to immigrants in general.
I don’t think Biden’s perfect, in any case. I think this is an absolutely-no-question who to show up and vote for.
I prefer deportationally threatened.
I actually think he expects most of the asylum seekers to be denied and returned. As many of them should be, if they are not actually seeking asylum but are actually just trying to enter for economic/other reasons. (Cite on denial rates: https://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/667/).
But yes, working through the list faster and having additional resources are critical to handling the border in a humane and just way rather than just putting up barbed wire and hoping migrants get caught up and die. And, as Joe Biden pointed out last night, if you know that you will be processed (and possibly returned) within 6 weeks you may not be willing to pay a coyote as much as if you could potentially stay 6 years.
Yes, it was this. He has a history of using outdated and racist-adjacent language when speaking extemporaneously. He is an old man from a previous generation, and hasn’t had the same experiences younger folks have in avoiding these words. It’s unfortunate, but not particularly surprising - I had a grandparent that refused to stop using “coloreds” because that was the “polite” word he grew up with.
He’s an old man whose tongue slipped. I think your outrage is a bit performative and misguided in this case; it’s not that offensive or that big of a deal.
I’m reminded of a certain parable about motes and beams; this certainly comes in as a mote, vs. the beams in Trump’s case.
Then say that, and just that.
There’s that fucking word again. If Trump is “also” something, that means Biden is that thing too. Is Biden a racist scumbag, or is Biden a person who said the wrong thing while being yelled at by some asshole trying to get a gotcha moment?
I like “secret resident”. Sounds titillating.
Don’t be like that. What they said made perfect sense. And, even if it didn’t, it’s shitty to make fun of someone by accusing them of having a stroke. If you don’t understand what someone says, ask for clarification.
I can try to simplify: Several posters are accusing Jimmy of feeling some sort of “victory” with this thread. Jimmy doesn’t understand this. He is extremely disappointed with the reaction to this thread. He is upset that he’s being attacked for calling something racist that is in fact racist.
I get that. It’s one thing for people to say he’s overreacting in his anger. But the fact that people are attacking for saying anything is bullshit. If it’s okay for them to get (overly) mad at him, then it’s okay for him to be (overly) mad at Biden.
Also, the Dopers actually coming out and defending that usage as correct is extremely shitty. We even have one person bringing out the old “politically correct” term, like Republicans before they discovered the word “woke.”
I myself fall on the side of this being an overreaction That was what I actually came in to say. But then so are many of the reactions to his post. Apparently people think this post could cause Biden to lose the election or something.
But, yeah, OP. I do think you’re overreacting. One slip does not make Biden “also” a racist scumbag. And I have said before that I think it’s better to save attacks for the opposition, and try for more gentle correction of your allies. Your allies might actually listen, so you want to try and be convincing.
I take what Biden said to be him repeating their language back at them. I think it was a slip-up. In the moment, he didn’t think to change the language. His instincts are to reuse the language of those he is talking to, as is common with mediator types.
I think that, if you talked to Biden, he would fully understand why “illegals” is dehumanizing language, and would agree with you. I think he would say he was just quoting what they were saying.
In other words, I heard giant quote marks around “an innocent young woman who was killed by an illegal,"
Because that’s not how Biden usually refers to them.
I do get some of the ire here. Because people are afraid this will become a talking point among progressives. They’re afraid that it will be yet another excuse to not vote for him. That all that he did in the SOTU is for naught because of this one slip up. That just as he put the “Biden is feeble and old” nonsense to bed, he opened up “Biden is a racist scumbag.”
I would not take the anger as being directed towards you for bringing up that “illegals” is a racist term. I would take it as people being scared that perfection is going to be enemy of the good.
That said, it is just the Pit, and it is silly to assume that what you said is going to spread to others. I would save the anger until we see if this sentiment actually takes hold. It definitely won’t because of this Pit thread.
“I’m not a member of any organized political party…. I’m a Democrat.” – Will Rogers
Biden gives a great speech, so apparently that was the cue for the circular firing squad to commence. *smh*
Could be a reason for the racist “independents” to vote for him though so maybe it will be a wash.
That was semi-sarcastically said.
No need to thank me, BigT; I’m always happy to give you the chance to feel morally superior.
Anyways, your defense of Jimmy Woodforbrains is noble, but misguided. Your explanation of what he supposedly meant completely neglects to address who “the people from the only party who could ever have been said to have a chance at doing anything good in the country” are or what he means by “are the people who yell at you for saying something racist is racist”.
It does not “make perfect sense”, I still have no idea what it means.
I don’t think he is. I think the complaint is that he did so in a fashion that compared Biden to Trump, in a fashion that could be taken to imply that their positions in this area are in fact similar.
I, at least, am not defending the usage as correct. I’m pointing out that taking the usage in context with everything else Biden said in that speech indicates that no, the positions and also the attitude are in no way comparable.
Quite possible. I wish he’d used obvious quote marks, if so; but I think failing to do so is an excusable slip, if that’s what happened.
I noticed the president’s phrasing in a YouTube clip this morning. No, I wasn’t personally offended by that particular word choice in that situation. But I anticipated that other people would be.
I’m not sure whether it would be it would be better for the administration to somehow issue a statement that, “In the SotU, in ad libbed remarks the President erroneously used the word “illegal” to refer to someone who is actually (whatever the correct specific designation is.) No person is “illegal” blah blah blah” Or to just let it be.
Would that get more people more excited, or mollify folk? Keep it in the news, or make it go away?
I sorta expect that whether the President responds/clarifies or whether he doesn’t, someone will take issue with his choice.
Yes - Biden misspoke in using that word. Each person take that for whatever they feel it is worth.
I’m not inclined to give someone a pass for dehumanizing language because he’s our guy or because he’s old (!).
I’m also inclined to weigh the context in which the offending epithet was used, and the actions of the person who used it over a period of years. Biden’s rhetoric on border issues is not where I am, but it’s closer to where I am than anyone in the Other Party is, so…
Frankly, if he used the n-word or c-word in the SOTU speech, I’d be in the same place. Not acceptable, I hope he learns from it and apologizes for it, but if not… what productive options are there?
The person in question is a murderer, in addition to being an illegal immigrant. Maybe Biden should have responded with the word “killer,” but I can’t imagine it’s going to help Biden to issue an clarification that seems like he is showing sympathy for a murderer.
That’s pretty much how I feel. Pragmatically, what’s the purpose of raising this issue?
Well, if I call Trump a racist shitbag, it’s because I want other people to know he’s a racist shitbag, in the hopes that this will push them away from voting for him.
Were I to call Biden a racist shitbag, would it be for the same purpose? Nope. My hope here would be to explain to him why this is a problem, in hopes that he’d be better in the future. But, pragmatically, if this is what I’m hoping for, using language like “racist shitbag” is probably counter-productive.
And then there’s the issue of time and place. Now is not the time to make a big stink about Biden using a problematic term, that lots of people don’t even think is problematic, when we’re on the brink of having an actual racist shitbag become president again. So, pragmatically, let it slide until December.
Wouldn’t that be a “presumed” or “accused” killer?
Someone kindly asking you to not do something shitty is not trying to feel morally superior. If I wanted that, I would have said something like “How dare you!” or something similarly dramatic, instead of downplaying it.
The Democrats. The word “party” clearly means “political party.” And the Democrats are the US political party who “have a chance of doing anything good for this country.”
This I mentioned. People in this thread yelled at Jimmy for saying something racist is in fact racist. So he’s disappointed that Democrats on this board are attacking him for calling out racism.
(Note, I am describing what Jimmy said, not making my own claim here. See my other post for why I think people were actually upset.)
I don’t find anything Jimmy said in that post hard to understand. You’re assuming that the lack of understanding is Jimmy’s fault, not your own.
And I’m not trying to insult your intelligence. I’ve not understood something that other people found obvious. You can have a brain fart. You can get stuck in a rut in interpretation. You can be so angry or tired or whatever that you’re not thinking as clearly. It happens.
So not only do I think it’s shitty to accuse someone of having a stroke when they obviously aren’t, but I think it can come back to bite you in the ass if what they said was actually coherent.