When I heard that quote, yeah, I was pretty bummed. But I’m always always always about the context.
The problem with “an illegal” is that it’s a grossly dehumanizing phrase. Does Biden has a history of using grossly dehumanizing phrases? If so, I’ll treat it as part of that history. Does he have a history of supercringe verbal gaffes? If so, I’ll treat it as part of that history.
He shouldn’t have said that. I’d advocate for his post to be moderated if he posted it here. But I’m not gonna treat it as emblematic of him unless he has a pattern, now or in the future, or using dehumanizing language to refer to immigrants.
Man, I really think y’all are misreading @Jimmy_Chitwood here. OP reads to me like disgusted frustration and disappointment, not like “both sides are equally bad.” I mean, not like JC is famous for going out of his way to make sure he’s understood, but still.
It’s a dehumanizing term and someone’s immigration status is no more relevant to them committing a crime than their race, religion, or if they have parking tickets. The typical user of “an illegal” in this context would very likely use “a J**” or “a B****” (possibly excited for any opportunity to use “the n word” as well) given the chance. Make a “statement of fact” such as “She was murdered by an illegal” and switch out “illegal” with any number of terms. Most murders are committed by citizens. In a fantasy world, keeping all undocumented immigrants out of the country would prevent all crimes committed by that group, but that’s just a fantasy. You will never have 100% security and safety, and most of the right used to accept and promote that as an American value (and still do when it comes to things like loving guns).
ETA: I’m not saying I view Joe Biden as the typical user of these terms. That’s why it seems a little shocking or at least disappointing.
I’m not a fan of this argument, but I do also think it would be a misstep to mention it, because it calls attention to it. It would probably be better to just make a point later to emphasize using the correct terminology.
Now, if others draw enough attention to it, then an apology might make more sense. But, even then, hearing Biden get it right later would have more impact to me.
That’s true, and fair, so thanks for saying it, and thanks for the rest of your post. I think I try to clarify what I consider good faith disagreements. But it is true that I don’t mind letting people misunderstand, and maybe I am too quick to see bad faith. So:
I do not think Joe Biden and Donald Trump are comparable. I do not think both sides are the same, or that a person who says they are is a sane person. I do not think people should vote for Donald Trump. I do think people should vote for Joe Biden, where the choice is him or Donald Trump.
The point of this thread is not any of that. The point of this thread is that if you are the party that is not the Donald Trump party, then you are the most important force in American and maybe world politics, and it is really bad for you to drift rightward when it comes to dehumanizing, fascist-in-aesthetic behaviors like saying people have been “murdered by an illegal.” One of the second-order consequences of fascism, historically, is liberal societies ceding lots and lots of ideological ground to fascists, out of fear and out of appeasement. It’s a bad tendency; it goes to a bad, dark place. A better version of Joe Biden than the one who says “murdered by an illegal” is the one who doesn’t. And a better version of a Joe Biden supporter is one who says “that’s bad, don’t say that” when Joe Biden says that.
That’s the point of the thread. Donald Trump is bad.
(Also, thanks you BigT. Your reading is correct, although, in my opinion, if people can’t read a post, too bad. Skill issue, as they say.)
This whole time I wad thinking you were going for a “gotcha”, hence the link to an ATMB thread. “You leftist losers on the Dope got your panties in a bunch over the word “illegal” and now the president says it, so why can’t I?”.
I can excuse Biden saying a bad word. Stumbling over names, gaffes in speech. He’s had speech impairment for many years.
I can excuse him for being of an age.
I can NOT excuse 90+ indictments, hatred, dumbassery, danger to democracy and sheer ignorance from his ‘predecessor’.
This would be my take on why the whole issue this thread is about is moot. I suspect that “illegal” used as a disparaging noun was either engraved on the pin itself and/or was being yelled at him by the moron who gave it to him. So I see the wording of his retort as most likely throwing MTG’s exact words right back at her for ironic effect. I certainly don’t see Joe Biden as the sort of person who casually throws around dehumanizing slurs like “illegal” as a synonym for a human being lacking immigration papers.
Remember, we’re dealing with Republicans who love the argument that if you can’t even say the word you can’t fix the problem. Think back to “radical Islamic terrorism” which according to Republicans could not be solved because liberal bleeding hearts were afraid to say those words. Same goes for the “immigrationally challenged” or whatever the polite term would be.
My counter here would be that it really seems like he has just done exactly that, during the most highly public thing a president does, and is being largely defended on the merits for it.
…the correct time and the correct place to criticize the leadership in any so-called-democracy is whenever you fucking like. And if a person ranting on a relatively insignificant messageboard is enough to lose an election, you’ve got bigger problems to worry about than anything that will ever be said here.
Just because you have the right to do something doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. Strategy matters, and it matters more now than any of us have ever seen in our lives.
How exactly do you think this strategy will work? Silence all dissent on this messageboard? Shut down TikTok?
Any strategy that involves not listening to people who have valid concerns and attempting to shut down any dissent is a losing one. And if, god forbid, Biden loses the next election, we all know that you are going to turn around and blame it on the people that you forced into silence.
There are very real problems with the Democrats, with this administration, with the Supreme Court, with authoritarian nonsense going on in both Republican and Democrat states, and if the reaction is to get the vapors because somebody dared criticize Biden for using an obviously racist dog whistle at the State of the Union address, then you guys are so fucccked.
I haven’t seen the video clip but I have heard the exchange in audio on the radio.
When I heard him say illegal I did stop for a moment I have to say. My first thought was that sounded like a slur but I’ve never heard it quite used in that way before. Or if I have it didn’t make the impression that it did hearing it from the president.
My second thought was the way he threw it out there sounded like he was using her own language and throwing it back at her. He completely undermined her foundation before she even got it set up.
Ultimately though I feel like Jimmy has everyone looking at this tiny stick on the ground and ignoring the complexity of the entire Forest around us.
