The ethics of manipulating your SO:

In My Humble Opinion
21

No, it’s not the sex specifically. It’s the fact that you are using your position as her SO to compel her to do things the way you think is best. It would have been just as skeevy if you’d refused to hug her, or talk to her, or eat at places she liked, etc. until she cleaned her room. It may have been all in good fun this time, but in general controlling behavior is a big red flag for most people.

No. Even though the outcome may have been the same, the reasons for it would have been different. And it’s only the reason that matters.

More objectionable, in my opinion. You’re still being just as controlling as before but now you’re lying about it, which is manipulative.

22

You’d stop if she asked? That’s supposed to make it not skeevy?

Sorry, man, but any kind of ultimatim like that, where you’re going to withold a normal sign of affection until she does what you want, is just weird and controlling. You could have told her you wouldn’t make her your world famous ice cream sundaes for her anymore, or you wouldn’t take her out to dinner, or you wouldn’t watch TV with her. Doesn’t matter.

The fact that a) didn’t dump you immediately b) didn’t tell you that your little plan was totally inappropriate and you’d better apologize for even suggesting it and c) gave you what you wanted . . . Well, let’s just say it shows that it takes all sorts. The fact that she didn’t opt out is not a sign that what you did is a-okay. I’m really, really hoping that she actually took it largely as a joke.

The bizarre digression about you being hypothetically physically repulsed by the room, rendering sex impossible, has no place in the discussion. I’m sure that if you thought long and hard about it, you could have come up with a more respectful way to encourage her to clean her room. The fact that you got away with this once should not assure you that withholding sex is a healthy way to get what you want from your girlfriend.

23

Also, in case it wasn’t perfectly clear before: I started this thread because I was unsure what was acceptable and what wasn’t. It seems more or less universally clear that my first example was very,very bad. I did not start this thread to get permission for my past actions; I started it to find out what was acceptable and what wasn’t. Obviously, withholding sex until a room is cleaned is unacceptable, and I will certainly not be doing it in the future.

So, why is it unacceptable? I certainly made a much more widespread modification to her behavior by responding to what she said and not what I thought she meant. I would aslo point out that my motivations in this were simply selfish, in that I wanted to be able to talk with my SO without having to guess and double-guess as to what she meant. What, specifically, made the second example more palatable then the first?

I’m not trying to prove anyone wrong here. That was not a rhetorical question above. Also, this is predicated on the assumption (which I seem to be seeing) that the first example was worse than the second.

24

Don’t.

I had a boyfriend that used a BS tactic on me once with the room cleaning thing (a room we shared). I was actually out at our chosen hangout on a friday afternoon when he came screeching up and told me I couldn’t go anywhere til our room was clean.

Excuse me, what?

He was forced the whole time to endure my “cleaning music” (black metal, which hurt his prog metal ears).

I left him a week later for the man I am now married to.

That tale being told, I believe it is wrong to “manipulate” your SO in any way. Relationships are only kept healthy through open communication and more than anything, compromise. I see you use phrases that basically condense down to “behaviour modification” - this is your girlfriend, not your German Shepherd.

As for your second statement, well, that is your GF’s problem. I did the same thing for a long time, until my (now) husband would grill me about what was wrong. He would inevitably figure it out. Now I just tell him if something is bothering me - chalk it up to personal growth, I suppose.

I still refuse to pick which restaurant we’re going to, though :wink:

25

No sex until I clean my room, huh?

That’s fine. I guess it’s no sex then. :rolleyes:

'digs through the mess, looking for that damn vibrator* :stuck_out_tongue:

26

No, actually you didn’t make any modification to her behavior in the second example. You modified your own behavior, i.e. you chose to stop volunteering for the job of mind-reader. Without you assuming the role of mind-reader, she chose to start using words rather than simply leaving things unsaid. She modified her own behavior.

There’s also nothing wrong with trying to convince your SO to clean up her room. If you tell her you hate how messy it is and she cleans it, you did nothing wrong, even if the only reason she cleaned it was to make you happy.

27

The second example is acceptable because it led to a better level of communication between the two of you, and you weren’t forcing her to do anything. There was no ultimatums involved, and very few people would argue that communication isn’t good for a relationship.

The first example is more subjective. Her room was obviously OK in her opinion, otherwise she would have cleaned it herself, or, if she were truly overwhelmed, asked someone (like you) to help her clean it. So really, what we’re talking about is that you have a different standard of clutter than she does. There is no “right” level of clutter - it’s all what works for you. Deciding to punish her because her clutter level doesn’t match yours is unacceptable behavior.

28

Sorry, robert, I took your post the wrong way. It seemed like you were trying to defend or justify your behaviour.

Here are a few things that make the second example more acceptible to me.

  • She’s attempting to manipulate you by getting you to guess what she’s mad at or coax it out of her rather than her just coming out and say it. She wants to make you to prove to her that you care about her, or to test you to see if you understand her, or to get you to pay more attention to her, or maybe she wants to avoid being “mean” by complaining but still wants you to know that she’s upset, or she just likes to play the martyr, or something. Or maybe she just needs to work on being open about her emotions when that’s constructive and hiding them when it’s not.

  • Your goal is better communication, which is a key to a good relationship, unlike a clean bedroom.

  • The “punishment” is related to, and proportional to, the “crime.” You’re not refusing to deal with her feelings, as long as she communicates them clearly. You are not imposing some arbitrary penalty; your response is a direct result of the undesirable behavior. (Loving sexual relations vs Housekeeping: tenuously related, at best. Equally important? God, I hope not.)

29

She couldn’t find that, either. :smiley:

SHAKES’s law: If you feel tempted to post to IMHO asking for validation for something you did, it was probably wrong.
I get that it was wrong, and am trying to work out the how and the why.

Would witholding sex to cause better communication be acceptable? How about interpreting statements literally in order to make her clean her room? (Yes, I could. I’m a programmer.)

Finally, I am still confused as to when and under what circumstances manipulation of your SO is acceptable. I did my take-her-literally schtick with the thought in my mind that this would cause her to change in a certain way. I’m fairly sure that it is more than a good-for-the-relationship-end-result that made this more acceptable than the bedroom.

30

I always have liked Rock Star better than Mr. Nancypants. Glad you picked the right one!

31

To me, the second example is acceptable because:

  1. Your reaction (taking her literally) was a natural consequence of her action (speaking in circles). Really, it was the only thing you could do whilst maintaining your sanity.

  2. Those stupid little “nothing’s wrong” games affect you directly and negatively. Regardless of your stated motivations, you had a legitimate reason to do what you did because her actions were interfering with your relationship.

The first example satisfies neither conditions one or two. A dirty room does not naturally lead to no sex (unless, as previously noted, it is unhygienic), and it has nothing to do with you or your relationship with her. You are imposing your standards on her (what is inherently wrong with a messy room?) You still haven’t answered the question of why the state of her room is any of your business.

But the biggest reason that witholding sex to produce a desired behavioral change is bad is what Giraffe said: sex should never be used as a barganing chip. It is too powerful of a tool- you’re swatting flies with sledgehammers.

She is a human being. Stimulus-response behaviors are for computers and ameobas. You are damn lucky that she put up with it once- treat her with a little respect, man.

32

Wanted to add this: by telling her to clean her room, you are setting up a father-daughter dynamic. Aside from the icky-ness, you know what daughters do, don’t you? They grow up and then they leave their fathers. Separation is a natural part of the parent-child relationship. Don’t set yourself up for that.

33

What** Podkayne** and **SusanStoHelit ** said.

In your second example, you’re simply refusing to be maniupulated yourself or play her “guess what I’m thinking game.”

In the first, you’re the one doing the manipulating. Add to it the fact that whether or not her room is clean is none of your business. If she had been constantly whining about losing things because her room was messy and you finally said “look, I don’t want to hear anything more about what you’ve lost in your room until you clean it–you know why you’re losing stuff and until you do something about it, it’s not worth discussing,” that would have been okay. It would be okay because A) you were honest and upfront about it and B) you were addressing the issue that affected you (hearing her complain).

34

How on earth would withholding sex accomplish that? Anyway, I can’t think any reason that withholding sex would be constructive. I cannot imagine how deliberately choosing not to have sex in order to punish your partner could ever help to solve a problem. The one example you’ve given it happened to work out, but much more often that it will cause resentment, which is poisonous.

I’ll just trust you on that, but I hope you have items other than withholding sex and literal interpretation in your relationship toolbox. :slight_smile:

How about you propose to your girlfriend that the two of you do something special if the two of you can clean up the room? Doing something extra as a reward is very different, emotionally, from withholding something pleasant to punish her. Would you still think of that as manipulation?

Or how about sitting her down and telling her, “Listen, the messiness of your room is really bugging me. I realize that you don’t think it’s that big a deal, but it bothers me a lot more than it does you. We’re different people, and we have different tolerance levels for clutter. It’s getting to the point that it’s distracting me from enjoying the time I spend with you. I’d really like it if we could work together to clean things up.” Do you think that would be manipulative? Do you think that there are non-manipulative ways to get your message across? Were there steps less drastic than withholding sex that would convince her you were serious.

If you believe that she absolutely would not have ever cleaned her room without your doing something drastically manipulative withholding sex . . . well, that means she doesn’t have much respect for you and your feelings, doesn’t it?

How about the second example? Are there less manipulative ways to get her to say what’s bothering her? (As I’ve said, I think that what you’re doing is reasonable, but do you feel like it’s the right thing to do?)

It’s really all a matter of degree. It depends on how bad the problem is, and how severe the manipulation is, and what your personalities are like.

Are you a believer in the Golden Rule?

How would you feel if she told you something she wanted you to do, and she wouldn’t have sex until you did? Would you think that was a helpful thing for her to do? Would you think she was being fair? Would you feel that she was being respectful of you and your relationship?

It’s hard for me to imagine a hypothetical, but can you imagine a situation that parallels your literal interpretation thing? Or can you just put yourself in her place? How do you think she feels about it? Frustrated, possibly. But does she understand your side of it, or do you think she feels that you’re being unfair and manipulative?

Have you talked to her about this?

35

Why? Because it’s treating your girlfriend like a child or a pet, withholding treats until she does something for you. Woof woof, good doggy, now here’s your bone.

If you wanted her to “clean her room” (why would you even care, since you didn’t live together?), then why not say, “You know, your room is really a mess, and whenver I visit, I feel really uncomfortable sitting in there. Would you mind tidying things up a bit?”

But say, “I’m not having sex with you/kissing you/going out with you until you clean your room/lose weight/cut your hair etc etc”-who the hell do you think you are-her father? And if you DO think you’re her father, then you’ve got fucking issues, dude.
In the second case, it sounds more to me like you refused to play stupid mind games, which was right. That wasn’t manipulation-it was just-“Hey, if you’re going to play these games, I’m just going to take you at your word and refuse to dance to your tune.”

But it is NEVER acceptable to manipulate a loved one. The only time it’s okay to withhold sex in order to get your partner to do something would be if your partner was refusing to bath. THEN you say, “Honey, you fucking stink. Take a shower-there’s no way I’m getting horizontal with you unless you stick a bar of soap under your arms!”

36

Heh heh.

I have to go with the prevailing opinion on the first scenario–sex is not something that should be given as a reward or punishment (unless, you know, you’re both into that sort of thing).

The second scenario I can understand, but only after you’ve really tried to talk about it, and you’ve made it clear that this bothers you, and that you’re going to take her exactly at her word. It may help to understand why she does this. This is one of those things that CrazyCatLady mentions that we had to reach an understanding about; I felt a lot better once we were able to talk about it and I understood why she would do it. Now, I don’t freak out and overreact when she does it, and she very rarely does it anymore.

37

People who use sex as a means to set up a reward/punishment system* are not mature enough to be having sex in the first place. Not being in the mood is okay, but withholding to punish someone or bend them to your will? And putting out as soon as the room was clean? One word: mangina.

Yes, women withhold all the time and it’s wrong, and it’s equally wrong when guys do it (although I don’t know many who would refuse sex for any reason other than a coma).

Second scenario is totally your girlfriend. Women especially are bad about expecting people to pick up on nonverbal cues and I don’t think anyone, male or female, is worth the effort it would take to psychoanalyze everything they say. She should say what she means rather than expect you to read her mind.
*Unless you’re just kinky like that and both parties are in agreement.

38

[Margie’s 2 cents] It’s been my experience that very few men like it when I’m direct with them. It seems to put them off, almost as if they are expecting a game and are trying to figure my “angle.”

I find it tiresome.

Probably why I’m still single. [/Margie’s 2 cents]

39

So, of the two statements,

“Honey, I don’t want to have sex in here until we’ve cleaned the room.” (with the proviso that this is the only place we can have sex without paying for it)

and

“Honey, I won’t have sex until we’ve cleaned the room.”

The first is acceptable, and the second is not?

40

The first is saying that sex in that room is uncomfortable for you. Not having sex in that room then becomes a logical extension, and it does not apply to having sex in other places even if those other places aren’t available.

The second says that even if someone were to offer you a free weekend stay in a luxury resort, somewhere far from the Messy Room, that you wouldn’t have sex with her because she isn’t conforming to your wishes. This is controlling and oogy.

Here’s another analogy. Say your SO has a rattletrap car. You don’t like to ride in the rattletrap car because it scares you and makes you uncomfortable.

Now say that your SO wants to take a road trip together. You say, “I won’t go on a road trip in that car.” That’s logical. The car scares you. If there’s another car available, you take the other car.

You say, “I won’t go on a road trip with you even in a different car because you own that car.” That’s controlling.