In rod we trust.
I don’t have a problem with people saying it’s an understandable response. I do have a problem with people like magellan acting like it’s the best thing ever. Even self-defense is not an ideal response, but one borne out of necessity.
I personally cannot assume that it was all adrenaline, as he paused twice. He administered three different beatings. Yes, they were quick. But the fact that he stopped, and appeared to be thinking really alarms me. He thought about it, and still thought it was a good idea to continue beating them after they were down. Having been that angry before, I know those pauses give you time to think.
Even if they were pulling a weapon, they were down enough that he could get away. I hate that he’s a former criminal and will thus get punished more for the same crime, but he does need to be punished in some form.
No doubt because he was being OPPRESSED by THE MAN, not because he had it coming. To the barricades!
So he evidently has a temperment bent toward criminality, which obviously helps to explain his behavior.
Count me as another vote for justifed self defense. Multiple attackers, regardless of sex, are capable of inflicting serious injury or death. It’s unfortunate that someone got their skull broken, but given the events seen in the video, the cashier would have been justifed in firing shots if he were armed with a gun.
If you put someone in fear of life or limb, expect them to defend with incapacitating force.
Just because an attacker is on the ground, it does not necessarily mean they are no longer a threat. The goings on are behind the counter, and we cannot see whether the aggressive behavior had ceased.
(bolding mine) Again, the events at this stage take place out of view. You’ve pulled this assertation out of thin air. We don’t know the status of the attackers at all moments in the video, only their final states as described in the article.
Again, we don’t know when, or if, the attacker(s) lost consiousness and ceased being a threat.
(bolding mine) Again, not evidenced in the video.
(bolding mine) And again, we don’t know when they ceased attacking. Down does not mean out in a street fight.
Retreating to a better defensive position is a wise move when faced with multiple attackers.
Irrelevant. When a dog attacks a person, the owner will often plead for restraint when a victim kicks back. My point being that it far easier for an outside observer to make calm, rational evaluations. A victim of assault has one concern - stop the attack at all costs.
[QUOTE=Jimmy Chitwood]
So killing a person (gender doesn’t matter) because they slapped you and didn’t run away: “perfectly understandable”?
[/QUOTE]
They assaulted, then continued to pursue their victim when he retreated to a better defensive position. If a man slaps his wife, and she runs to the kitchen, grabs a knife and stabs him as he continues his attack, is she wrong?
This kind of thing is always hard, but I do think Jimmy Chitwood is being an ass clown. I hate “internet tough-guyism” just as much as the next person, but as someone who has been in a few fights in my day I do think it’s worth saying the plain truth that in a fight you’re not in a boxing match. You don’t go back to your corner just because you knock the other guy over.
I have a cousin (he’s actually 30 years younger than me b/c of familial quirks so he’s treated more like a nephew) who when he was 17 got into an altercation in the parking lot of a store where he and some friends were hanging out. He was a pretty tough kid, on the wrestling team, in really good shape. He basically kicked the other guy’s ass and put him on his back. My cousin being a bit naive in life backed up with the assumption the guy would skulk off in shame and the matter would be settled. Well, unfortunately the guy who got knocked on his ass decided he didn’t like losing a fist fight, so after laying on the ground for about 30 seconds jumped up and stabbed my cousin several times, and then slashed all four tires of his car and the cars of several of my cousin’s friends so they couldn’t drive him to the hospital. Luckily the situation got diffused and my cousin came out of it with no long term serious injuries (he was very touch and go for 48 hours or so, though.)
Now obviously the right answer is to avoid fights, and my cousin could have avoided the fight he was in (it started essentially as true mutual combat.) However a physical altercation starts, though, it is absolutely true that in the real world (not martial arts dojos and other things often divorced from real self defense and real fighting) you don’t stop just because you knocked the guy down.
I’m also not saying you beat someone to death, either. But you need to take measures for your own safety. Luckily in the real world some 90% of fights I’ve seen end because onlookers break it up, and that’s a good limiter of things getting too out of hand. However when that doesn’t happen, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with delivering a few kicks to someone who is down–to keep them down, and to keep administering them if they keep trying to get up. I’ve done that before until the person basically showed me they weren’t going to keep fighting me and backed off.
What I wouldn’t do is kick someone in the head or anything like that, because I wouldn’t want to kill someone.
Yes, Martin and others with similair points. I think lots of these armchair quarterbacks have never been in a fight where it was quite possible YOU could end up dead. You go through that once and it changes you. Fighting is no longer like those campy Batman TV series fisticuffs.
If you asked everyone who knew me they would be amazed to think I might actually be (or at least try to be) a badass fighter if things went bad. But I’ve been in the I might die from this scenario once. And I am fairly sure if I get the upper hand its going to be ugly for the other person. I’ll try to stop before I cave their skull in but I ain’t making in promises in the heat of battle. I ain’t fighting to play fair. I am fighting to win. And for that matter, if we do get into a fight its most very likely you’ve been a violent jacksass of epic proportions for the fight to have started in the first place, which tells me you probably aren’t going to “fight fair” or stop as soon as I am down either., which means its on baby.
It’s clear to me that those fat, drunk ass gangster bitches were counting on their special privilege as women to avoid getting the ass whipping they so mightily deserved.
If I were the owner of a independent shop, and those cunts jumped the counter on me, I’d fucking shoot them. The metal pipe beatdown is kind by comparison.
My vote is not guilty.
Yeah, but he’s male, so he’s automatically wrong. That’s what the fat whores were counting on.
Which person in the video were you, and just what where the two females doing to you in that video that had you so close to death?
I think people are missing the point here. Of course a man has a right to defend himself against women.
Of course women can be a threat, especially if they’re bigger than you or armed.
But while you can defend yourself, beating up unarmed people who are much weaker than you isn’t something worthy of praise. It’s something that needs to be done.
So his initial response was reasonable. But stopping and then beating them on the ground is where he diverted from acceptable. If you smash the skull of a person weaker than you, while they’re helpless on the ground, you have progressed from necessary to elective mayhem.
And disgusting cowards like Magellan cheering the of beating people while they are helpless on the ground is the issue here.
So take a second to separate the issues in your head. No one is saying that the initial defense was unwarranted. They are saying that the dude flipped from defending to issuing a punitive beating.
As for the armchair ninjas like Terr claiming it’s adrenaline, bullshit. I’ve been in fights and I’ve never had the adrenaline-induced compulsion to blunt-force decapitate anyone. That’s just being an angry little pussy. Like the dude with the bar in the video.
But his cow-orker DID see everything, and he quite clearly thought that the line between self-defense and assault had been crossed based on his repeated attempts to intervene and cease the weapon.
At what point, specifically, was the woman’s skull fractured? At what point, specifically, was she rendered “helpless”.
Again, at what point is the woman rendered “helpless”? Do you have access to a camera angle showing when her skull was fractured, or showing that she wasn’t trying to get up? What evidence do you have that not every blow delivered by that mighty stick of righteousness was reasonable and prudent?
Cite for any of the beating being punitive. At what point, specifically, was the woman rendered not a threat? And what indication did that man wielding that righteous instrument of justice have that that was the case? And if there was a point that a reasonable person was so injured that she was going to stay down and was no longer a threat, what of the women’s actions we see can one conclude that they would act reasonably from that point forward?
So better he let them get up and risk further attack from the degenerate scum? Maybe he should help them up so one of them could stab him or throw hot oil at him? Brilliant.
The claim that he used excessive force is not definitively proved here.
If the two giant cows posed a real threat to his life - and they certainly did - then he had the right to do whatever it took to incapacitate them and eliminate the threat.
So if one of the bovines kept trying to get back up, he was within his rights to beat her til she stopped trying to get up.
To approach this issue from another angle - if the man behind the counter was an armed security guard or cop, he would have been within his rights to shoot these putas as soon as they jumped the counter.
Emphasis mine. You’re projecting expectations into what you saw. I doubt either of those silly bitches are over 5’6" and neither is particularly fat.
Also, eliminate the threat, is a little grandiose, don’t you think? It’s obvious what happened. He defended himself. And then he was pissed that they had the nerve to assault him. So he taught them a lesson. He went past self-defense into punishment.
At the beginning of the video, you can hear at least one of the women screaming something to the effect of “Well, do something, then, you pussy” and then they hit him. When he retreats, they come around the counter at him, obviously intent on continuing their attack. Some women count on their gender to allow them to get away with violence against men. In this instance, they didn’t realize that their victim had an obvious proclivity towards violence and a history which had probably deeply ingrained an instinct to defend with overwhelming force.
IMHO, had he stopped after the first few blows, say when the co-worked first tried to stop him, he would be fine legally and morally. As it is, I’d wager that he’s going to jail for a long time. I’ve watched the video a few times and I think that each additional attack after the first pause is proceeded by a flash of one of the women trying to get up. Admittedly at that point, they’re most likely trying to flee, but to his point of view in the what, 30 seconds of violence, he’s beat them down and they’re getting back up. Beaten, yes, probably incapable of further violence, yes, but they’re still getting back up. Personally, it would be hard for me to convict based solely on the weight of the video.
If all three of the individuals involved were male, I don’t know if we’d be having this discussion. Heck, were the cashier female and the two customers male, I doubt she would have even been arrested.
I have no information about it at all, but it’d be a damn shame if he was one of those who had actually made a fresh start after prison, only to be attacked and put into a situation where he’s going to react with his worst instincts.
For those who said that he shouldn’t be working in customer service and relegated to warehouse jobs: let’s be real. He’s a cashier at McDonald’s. It’s not exactly the most high-pressure job out there.
And if she got up and came after him again, then what? She chucks a pot of hot oil in his face?
Take her out. Take her out now. Don’t give her a second chance. She wants to be safe, she stays on her own damn side of the counter.
Ah, I see you’re invoking the White Castle doctrine. 
In any case, your opinion is duly noted. It’s stupid, but I understand what you’re getting at.
Of course the wife is wrong if she stabs him repeatedly while he’s lying on the ground. Of course a female cashier would be wrong. I didn’t say anything about the women being no threat. What I said was there’s a difference between “a threat” and a goddamned apocalyptic stop at all costs threat. Christ, they’d have been some threat if they had walked back there without slapping him. And they’d have been some threat if they had slapped him without walking behind the counter. But at some point, a human adult with a brain has to be able to gauge that threat and handle it without trying to fucking murder the people responsible with a weapon while they are lying on the ground, for fuck’s sake.
I mean, for fuck’s sake. One slapped him and they walked after him. He was surrounded by other people. He tried to kill them with a piece of metal. Somehow I suspect you people wouldn’t actually enjoy living in the world you’re enjoying pretending you live in.
[QUOTE=billfish]
I think lots of these armchair quarterbacks have never been in a fight where it was quite possible YOU could end up dead. You go through that once and it changes you. Fighting is no longer like those campy Batman TV series fisticuffs.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, jesus. I’ve been in fights. The reason they’re scary and you shouldn’t get into them is because you never know when some crazy motherfucker will take a bad situation and turn it into a worst-case-ever scenario by getting a weapon and killing everyone. That’s why you don’t slap people. That doesn’t make it the right response to getting slapped to be that motherfucker. It is completely insane to act like what this guy did was actually an appropriate response. You don’t get to kill people as soon as you’re threatened, because that’s insane, and lots of people in a bad moment will get out of hand, but still not pose any immediate threat of death, so let’s not have everyone dying all the time. So you get to defend yourself. Running and getting a weapon and killing people by bludgeoning them while they lie on the ground, when the worst they’ve done is hit you with one open hand slap and then walk after you, is not defending yourself, and it’s not a thing you learn is necessary because you got into some scraps in high school. What you learn when you’ve been in some scraps is that while somebody’s attacking you, you get out of the situation as immediately as possible. Beating them to the ground and then on the ground with a weapon is what you do instinctively because you’re a fucked up lunatic, or what you dream about doing because you hate yourself and you hate society, maybe. If he hit each of them once and tried to walk away, and one got up, so he whacked her when she got up, that would be regrettable but defensible. This was not that.
Do any of you people believe that this guy subjectively feared for his life?
One of them slapped him, and the two of them chased him down the isle in the food prep area, so I believe that it was self-defence when he stopped their attack with the metal bar. Once the assault stopped (they had backed away and were on the ground), he was no longer in imminent dangers but he continued to beat them with the metal bar, so at that point self-defence was no longer applicable. Perhaps he might get somewhere with his self-defence argument by asserting that although they were on the ground, they were still chewing on his ankles and throwing McNuggets at him, but unless they were found with a gun or a knife in hand, I doubt if self-defence would hold.
I think he might have some chance at defending his clubbing the baby seals as they lay wounded on the ground while the people around him tried to call him off if he were to assert insanity (or whatever similar plea is used in his jurisdiction, be it M’Naghten or All Model, etc.) resulting in his having a substantial incapacity to appreciate that what he was doing to his fallen assailants was a very big no-no. Get him tested out to show he was a few bricks short of a load (hey, he already shot someone to death, so odds are that there is something bent about him), assert that his background (including prison time) left him not realizing that what he was doing was wrong, and argue that due to the freakiness of being attacked by two people he lost control.
I have no sympathy for any of them.