Israel is an illegimitate state
the original terms of the Balfour declaration in 1917 were:
“His Majesty’s government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a National Home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this objective, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”
Lord Curzon (who replaced Balfour as foreign secretary):
“What is to become of the people of the country [Palestine] assuming the Turk to be expelled, and the inhabitants not to have been exterminated by the war? There are over half a million of these, Syrian Arabs-a mixed community with Arab, Hebrew, Canaanite, Greek, Egyptian and possibly crusader blood. They, and their forefathers, have occupied the country for the best part of 1500 years. They own the soil which belongs either to individual landowners or to village communities. They profess the Mohammaden faith. They will not be content either to be expropriated for Jewish immigrants, or to act merely as hewers of wood and drawers of water to the latter.”
These statements highlight one of the two great deceptions perpetrated against the Arabs by the British. The first that in any immigration of Jews into palestine there would not be a Jewish state, and that the indigenous peoples would have their rights upheld. The other was that the Arab states, in helping the Allies to expel the Turks and defeat the Ottoman Empire, would result in independence (self-determination) of the Arab states
A Jewish presence continued in Israel from the beginnings of Diaspora on, Jews never renounced their claim on Israel. Return indeed began in the 1880s. Why? That was when the pograms commenced in Russia. Many went to the US. Some to Israel. It increased as oppression rachetted up accross Europe.
The response of Arabs to Jewish immigration was mixed but the leadership was violently against it. The Grand Mufti of Jerusulam, the spiritual leader of the region for his time, organized anti-Jewish riots. And massacers. Most famous was the 1929 massacer of the Jews of Hebron. The Mufti later went on to work with the Nazis in Europe. He wasn’t anti-Zionist; he was a simple Jew-hater. And he influenced the politics of the day greatly.
Clearly some Jews, having been driven out of their past homes, did not take too kindly to being the targets of pograms in Israel too. Some of them felt that counter-terrorism was just. Some did not. But it has become clear that terrorism was used by some early Zionists both tit for tat, and as a coercive measure to gain territory. Moreover, early Zionist forces were quai-military with poor command structures. Just look at Abu Grav to see what happens when command structures are insufficient in times of conflict. It is a sad fact of human nature that some individuals will abuse power once given it if there is inadequate control. This occurred on the Zionist side without doubt.
It is also clear, as noted by your Morris cite, that Arab leadership wanted Arabs out of the region as well. And that after they failed to kill off the Jews, and failed to win all the land in battle, that they failed to absorb or assist the refugees thereby created, and failed to realize that negotiation was a reasonable next step.
Meanwhile Jews were expelled in roughly equal numbers from homes in Arab lands were they had lived in for hundreds and thousands of years. Their properties were confiscated. These individuals were absorbed into Israel and there is, therefore, no “Jewish-Arab refugee problem”.
No side is totally blameless. As a musician puts it “The Palestinians are not the Rebel Alliance!” But the Arab side created the identity of “Palestinian” as a reaction to Israel. It played a major hand in creating the refugees and fostered it along rather than either absorb them or create a Palestine when they controlled all of the Occupied lands up til 1967. After 1967, when Israel offered the lands in return for peace, the Arab League said no negotiation, no peace.
Israel is held to a different standard than anyone else. Maybe she should be.
But now too many forces are aligned to keep the conflict roiling for peace to have much of a chance. Israel’s only option now is indeed unilateral disengagement and The Fence (although Sharon is screwing that up too by using for political ends rather than following as close to the Green line as possible.)
I can’t handle that highly suspect 88 on your username. Thinking about it, you post about the Israelis being oppressive and how the Palestinians had no choice etc…
Whether the founding of Israel was good idea or not, it is there now and you can’t unmake that omelet. As I’ve said before arguing about who deserves the land more is a waste of time - they’re both there now, rendering the historical arguments largely moot as far as practical solutions are concerned.
In 1948, they could have had a state (and one much larger than any they’re likely to get now) if they had accepted the partition plan. The Jews accepted it, the Palestinians did not and went to war instead.
In 1967, after winning the Six Day War, the Israelis offered peace. A Palestinian state could have been negotiated as part of that peace. Instead, all Israel got were the “three nos of Khartoum.”
In the last decade, the Palestinians could have had a state if they wanted. They were offered most of what they wanted, but turned it down. We can argue whether or not the offer was substantial enough - but one fact is plain - rather than offer a counteroffer, Arafat started an intefada - and another opportunity for a Palestinian state was lost.
As Abba Eban stated “The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.” And, sadly, until they develop some true leadership, that is likely to remain the situation.
My own personal opinion is that the best and worst things that could happen to Israel is that they actually develop a peaceful powerful leader like Ghandi. It would be the worst thing that could happen because it would put intense pressure on Israel to negotiate a final settlement, but it would also be the best thing that could happen in that there could be a chance for a real peaceful settlement.
Israel is constantly under international pressure, and what is the Israeli response ,build more settlements in West Bank , build Wall ,and destroy any remaining Palestininan Authority infrastructure.
How do they suppose to function and proceed with choosing new leaders while everything around them is being blown up?
The Balfour declaration did not create the state of Israel. You know that, don’t you? The States of Israel and Palestine were created from the British Mandate territories by UN fiat. If Israel is illegitimate, then so is Palestine.
And so is Syria, Jordan and Iraq, created from scratch as they were from the remnants of the Ottoman Empire by western powers after WWI.
And NonPolar?
Let’s try to stay focussed, shall we? The “debate” (if in fact there is one) seems to center on the legitimacy of the creation of Israel and the actions of the ealry Zionists. Your drive-by sniping brings absolutely nothing to the discussion, is illuminated by the basest of impulses and displays the same stiff-necked refusal to consider all the facts that one usually associates with long-departed posters who continued with such infantile and intellectually dishonest behavior.
If you have something to contribute, please do- otherwise butt out.
And DonMartin88: for our benefit, could you possibly recap the point of this debate? Is it, indeed that you think that the State of Israel is illegitimate?
I agree with assertion that Israel is an illegitimate state. We’re right bastards, the lot of us. Meanest bastards you’ll ever meet - and don’t you forget it.
BIZZWIRE did you read that f***** stupid comment of RYAN_LYAM about Polish Nazis training terrorist . J.Arafat ?
Next he will tell that Poles killed all the Jewish people in theirs(not german) concentration camps
Tell him please, to stick to the topic!
And one more thing, are you moderator?
Ah…the old “he started it first” ploy? Nice try, but most of your latter posts had nothing to do with M. Liam’s post (which, I agree, was apropos of nothing germaine to the thread). We put the whole Arafat thing to rest midway the first page.
I am not a moderator I still feel I have the right to call bullshit when I see it. If I overstepped my boundaries, I apologize, but I think that we have the germ of a good debate here and hate to see it dragged off-track with gratuitous drive-bys.
If you feel that I singled you out unfairly, I’m sorry. Kinda. Sorta.
And who forced them out of those places when Israel was created (in 1948)? The Sinai and Gaza Strip was Egypt until 1967 (and the Sinai returned to Egypt in 1979), and the Old City of Jerusalem was Jordan until then.
DonMartin88 Why do you mention that Benny Morris is Jewish?
Does that have a single iota of relevance to anything?
In addition, I’ve furnished you with quotes of what actually happened at the time, some from the very mouths of the people who participated.
You’ve provided someone looking back and re-examining history.
Cite?
I could’ve sworn that in [-1881-1884 Pogroms sweep southern Russia, propelling mass Jewish emigration: about 2 million Russian Jews emigrated in period 1880-1920. The Russian word “pogrom” becomes international.
-1882 May. A series of “temporary laws” by Czar Alexander III of Russia (the May Laws), which adopted a systematic policy of discrimination, with the object of removing the Jews from their economic and public positions, to “cause one-third of the Jews to emigrate, one-third to accept baptism and one-third to starve.”
-1887 Russia introduces measures to limit Jews access to education, known as the quota.
-1891 Expulsion of 20,000 Jews from Moscow, Russia.
-1915 The World War I prompts expulsion of 250,000 Jews from Western Russia
-1917-1921 Attacked for being revolutionaries or counter-revolutionaries, unpatriotic pacifists or warmongers, religious zealots or godless atheists, capitalist exploiters or bourgeois profiteers, masses of Jewish civilians (by various estimates 70,000 to 250,000, the number of orphans exceeded 300,000) were murdered in pogroms in the course of Russian Civil War. Out of estimated 900 mass pogroms:
* about 40% were perpetrated by the forces led by Simon Petlyura fighting for Ukrainian directorate. Its president Vladimir Vinnichenko was quoted as saying: "The pogroms will cease when Jews will cease to be Communists",
* 25% by the Green Army and various nationalist and anarchist gangs,
* 17% by the White Army, especially forces of Anton Denikin,
* 8.5% by the Red Army. (Source: Solzhenitsyn 200 Years Together)
-1919-1922 Soviet Yevsektsiya (the Jewish section of the Communist Party) attacks Bund and Zionist parties for “Jewish cultural particularism”. In April 1920, the All-Russian Zionist Congress is broken up by Cheka led by Bolsheviks, whose leadership and ranks included many anti-Jewish Jews. Thousands are arrested and sent to Gulag for “counter-revolutionary… collusion in the interests of Anglo-French bourgeoisie… to restore the Palestine state.” Hebrew language is banned, Judaism is suppressed, along with other religions
-etc, etc, etc](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_anti-Semitism)
Maybe you’re thinking of a different Russia?
You really need me to touch on the totally absurd concept that in 1917 the Brits thought that the Russians liked the Jews?
No matter how many times I hear this spurious piece of pseudo-logic, it drives me batty
an Israeli “terror attack?” Prove that. And you’ll have a tough time, since Israel was attacked in '48. Again, facts contradict the claims you’ve made.
Why would the technological state of the IDF allow Palestinians to murder Israeli women and children? That ideology is morally bankrupt.
Israel was not armed by the United States in '48. I have family who personally saw to that detail, and the Mafia was involved, gun runners were involved, wealthy and connected Jews were involved, but the US was not.
Fact: The '67 war was caused when the Arab neighbors of Israel lined their military up along the border and prepared to invade. Places like the Golan were used to shell Israelis, as such, a perfectly valid military target and a perfectly valid piece of turf to conquor and hold on to.
Good point, but (and here I reach the limits of my knowledge of ME history), wasn’t the rule of Jordan given, not to a local leader, but a Hashemite tribe from Saudi Arabia? Forgive my utter hashing of this (no pun intended) if I am totally out of touch here.
I see your point, but was referring to the OPs statement that the nation of Israel was illegal due to the manner of it’s creation by UN resolution. Since this resolution also created the state of Palestine (which, as a sovereign nation, never existed prior to 1948), what’s good for the goose, etc…