The feelings fallacy

The BBQ Pit
21

Since you reprimanded the person in private and told him/her the consequences of his/her actions in a straight forward fashion, you’ve done nothing wrong in my book.

In my last postion, I had five people reporting to me. My manager, the director of the department, informed me that two people came to her to complain after I reprimanded them. When she asked them what exactly I said to them and they told her, she sent them away because technically I’d done nothing wrong. Finally, over lunch one day, she advised me that medicine goes down easier with a spoonful of sugar. Without missing a beat, I told her sugar rots your teeth. She laughed and decided I was hopeless.

Point? I can dig. We’re all adults here, not kids. Sometimes when your feelings get hurt, you need to take a step back and figure out if you own those hurt feelings. In other words, did the person who you think caused you to have hurt feelings say something wrong or did you take what was said the wrong way? I’d say in many situations, your feelings are hurt because you allowed your feelings to get hurt.

Feelings, schmeelings!
JuanitaTech, the ESTP.

22

I’m more in agreement (and I know I’ll go to hell for this) w/Izzy & Avalonian

To claim that you’re totally removed from responsability for the effect of your words is, well, wrong. A reasonable person can predict that calling some one a fucking stupid cunt will not (generally) endear the speaker to the object of the scorn.

This is not the same as saying you never have the right to say bad things, just be honest about what your intended effect is.

In the situation you described, however, while there may have been ‘gentler’ ways of saying the same thing ("while I understand that you may have personal situations that cause you great concern, I have to be concerned about proper utilization of the companies assets), but I don’t think it was necessary.

And I disagree that usage of the word ‘feeling’ in your other example ("I feel that at this time blah blah blah’) is a method of not allowing for rebuttal, but rather almost the opposite.

If some one (in a business setting) states “I feel this is the best option”, that’s my cue to suggest alternatives (should I have them) since they aren’t claiming positively as fact ‘this is the best option’.

All that being said, there is a difference, IMHO, between “Stern” and ‘Rude’, between “direct” and “Insulting”, and also between “Blunt” and “offensive”.

It takes quite a bit of skill to navigate in some cases (since one person’s blunt is another’s offensive), of course, naturally, some one like you wouldn’t have that. (d & R - do I really need to add the smiley?)

23

I can understand your frustration, Scylla. Usually the people who are upset because their feelings have not been taken into consideration voice their opinion in a very inconsiderate manner.

I am currently working in customer service. We get a lot of people who scream and yell, then say huffily, “I know this isn’t your fault, but I’m mad!” Uh, so what? If you get so angry that you can’t control your own behavior, you need to seek some sort of treatment. Don’t expect the world to go “Oh, OK. Well, we have these rules, which you were notified of and may or may not have bothered to read/listen to, and we have repeatedly and calmly explained to you that how you thought things were going to be isn’t how they are, but, gee, I’m so sorry that your feelings are hurt because of that, so I’ll just go ahead and break the rules just because you’re so mad.” (When our company messes up, I apologize and try to rectify the situation as best I can, and I try not to give in to the really nasty people, because I know it encourages their behavior.)

Usually, the people who are the rudest and nastiest are people who are trying to scam us but aren’t getting their way, or who don’t care to listen to what they’re buying before giving out their credit card number then lie to cover it up, or so on. There are the people who swear up and down that their address is correct and that they’ve never had a problem with their mail, but 3 shipments and 6 collection notices have mysteriously not gotten through, except the very last one (which is apparently the one that is nasty enough to get their attention), and they get upset when their word isn’t enough to have me magically waive their debt. I got one older lady who bought our product (it’s one of those things where you get a discount if you join the ‘club’ and get automatic shipments) and, when I told her that her “unauthorized charge” was authorized, and tried to instruct her on how to return it (it’s not hard – just put ‘refused’ on the box), she started personally attacking me and asking “why are YOU forcing this on me? I am a senior citizen! You are upsetting me!”

I’m not a callous person. I don’t like it when people are upset and I try to help them. My feelings are hurt when I get attacked and screamed at because things didn’t work out the way that the person on the end of the line expected, and because the alternatives I give them to resolve it are unacceptable. (I thought that they would automatically cancel my subscription because I decided to return a package, even though it says that nowhere in the paperwork. Therefore, I should not have to return this shipment, even at the company’s expense, because it is too much trouble! But, I still want a refund including shipping and handling.) Why don’t my feelings count, too? You are upset and mad, and get to scream, in your mind. How nice for you. Do you think you would accept it if I decided to scream back? I’ll bet that you’ll demand a supervisor and try to get me fired. So much for “feelings” being relevant.

I’m all for considering people’s feelings when possible. However, in the impersonal world of business, you have to expect that there’s a certain point where your feelings are less relevant than the facts. If you steal $1000 in phone calls, I don’t care how bad it feels to be called on it. Maybe I feel bad that I can’t afford a new house. Does that mean I get one at someone else’s expense?

24

At what point do you block the persons access to outside calls that would total $1,000?

25

You can always have your consciousness transferred onto a microchip and transfer your person into a robotic body. Then you’ll be Cyber-Scylla, the heartless, clinical machine, immune to feelings and emotions… striking fear into the hearts of evildoers everywhere…

26

Wring, Izzy, and Avalonian:

I don’t disagree. Of course one is responsible for what they say, and is especially responsible if they say something designed to hurt another.

I’m ranting in part because what seems to be missed is the listener’s responsibility.

Gobear’s a tough guy, so I’ll use him as an example. I doubt every time some ignorant idiot starts pounding his Bible, and pronouncing doom and hellfire on homosexuals that Gobear takes it all personal and starts weeping. I would guess that people like that don’t have power to effect him very much, because he doesn’t allow them to.

I imagine the emotion is more like tired frustration than anything else.

That doesn’t mean that those people aren’t being idiots and shouldn’t be held responsible for what they say.

By the same token nobody wishes to work in a hostile work environment, and if I have to talk to somebody is my responsibility to do so in a constructive and reasonable fashion. Usually that means letting somebody gripe.

If this person had some kind of family tragedy going on, and a good record I’d probably look the other way, and figure that this is the temporary price of keeping a good employee happy. This is not the case. As far as I can tell, he simply wants to talk to relatives in Europe but doesn’t like paying the phone bill, and there’s been a pattern where the amount of time spent on those expensive calls is steady escalating. I’ve played nice guy, twice with this guy on this issue.

Now, I felt tha it was important to make myself absolutely clear and unambiguous that he was making a career decision.
It’s frustrating that the response to this has been that I’ve been insensitive to his feelings. With more and more reflection, I feel comfortable that the person who intervened with me didn’t know the full story, or they would not have criticized my handling of the situations. I didn’t, and I’m guessing that it would not be in anybody’s best interests to enlighten her. Hopefully the situation is solved, though I’m sure the employee is going to contact a higher level of management, or ask somebody else to (which is why I did so first.)

In truth, I was pissed because that criticism hurt my feelings. Isn’t that ironic?

27

I know that I sometimes cry easily, and might on occassion, just as a result of being embarassed.

However, that’s MY problem, and as long as this was professional, then it was all right.

Although I have a question-legally, can you take the charges out of her pay? I thought you had to go through a lot of legal means to do that?

Or are you merely telling her that she will pay the charges back?

28

Never. He needs the access. It would be an option to block specific numbers, but I won’t do that for two reasons

First, it’s childish, and secondly if there is a legitimate emergency or an exception, I don’t want to be the one responsible for blocking him.

29

Guin:

No. It’s a he, and we’re going to debit hard dollars. He’s going to have to sign an acknowledgement that we’re doing this.

30

Okay, but wouldn’t the person be able to ask someone for access in the case of emergency or exception? I hear you saying it’s childish, but it also seems like this person can’t help themselves or is having some serious personal or family diffuculties. Wouldn’t it be a good idea to find out what all of this is about?

31

If you play the nice guy too often, that’s when assholes start takin’ advantage of your kindness.

Besides, ultimately, being hard on someone is in their best interest. Really, this employee will be hurtin’ in the short term, but in the long term? He’ll still have his job, and he’ll learn to moderate his actions.

32

EasyPhil:
I’m clear on what’s going on and why.

33

Okay, I see. I wasn’t sure how it worked. Thanks.

I think you’re doing the right thing. In fact, I think he’s lucky he’s keeping his job.

34

I am very much with Scylla on this. Firstly: he was given one chance, and apparently he chose to willfully disobey a direct order to stop stealing from the company. At this point, if he were my employee, I would not have any concern for his feelings, since he would, in fact, no longer be my employee. Apparently Scylla is therefore at least marginally nicer than I am. More importantly, I would never retain an employee in circumstances where they needed special, unique-to them security precautions to ensure that they would not defraud the company again - I can ensure this far more simply, without giving them special treatment or wasting other resources, by terminating their employment. That Scylla did not is the entirety of the sympathy that is due this individual; furthermore, “being nice” to him will only muddle what should be the entirety of the message: that he, personally, did wrong, that he knew he did wrong, and that willful malfeasance is not to be tolerated.

35

Given the circumstances as I understand them, I’d have fired the guy. And deducted the grand from his final paycheck. You’re a softy. Of course he’d have understood that after the first incident, and I probably would have been very considerate during that first discussion.

36

You know, I deal with this with my students a lot, and it takes me the first three or four weeks of school to demonstrate to them that while the soft, fluffy bunny part of me is concerned with their emotional state, the evil tyrant in me does not alter my expectations for their behavior.

Have a crappy morning at home? Hey, I’ll pat you on the shoulder and sympathize, but you don’t get to take it out on your neighbor by calling her an ugly mole. Try it, and you’ll get to make a public apology after I’ve gotten the whole class’s attention.

Hate me because I called you on your violation of dress code? My heart bleeds, but you’ve still got to go to the principal’s office and borrow one of his stunning Goodwill t-shirts.

Think the authoritarian oppression of requiring students to be in their desks on when the bell rings sucks? I’ll take a moment to tell you it’ll all be better when you’re an adult and can make the decision to show up or not as suits you, but I’ll still be writing the progress report that tells your parents you’re going to Saturday school.

Oh, there are tons more, and I’m becoming more and more convinced that the kids who have learned to stifle their native tendencies towards pouting, martyrdom, and self-righteousness are the ones who will be a thousand times more successful in life because they will get the work done even if they don’t like it.

37

I’m simply stunned that your company has eaten the tab at all for these phone calls. Heck, my job is long distance from my house, and every single family member I have left is long distance from me. And you can bet I not only pay for what calls I make from work, but I make damn sure I make those calls during my lunch break – or if it’s an emergency and I HAVE to take the call, I stay over the amount of time I spent talking on the phone.

Is it stated in this guy’s contract that the company will cover a certain amount of personal calls? Is this a part of his salary? [That question’s rhetorical, by the way.] If not, then it’s no different than if he’d taken $1000 worth of office supplies. Worse, in fact, because not only is the company out the cost of the phone calls, they’re out the labor cost as well (as in, time he spent talking on the phone that he wasn’t doing his work.)

There is a difference between being tactful and between being a soppy Kleenex. If one wishes to work in a professional environment, then one should act like a professional. Stealing from one’s company - which is exactly what this guy did - is not professional. Period. I fail to see where his tender feelings should come anywhere into the equation.

The ‘feelings’ bit is a major, major irk of mine in the workplace. I can’t tell you how disgusted I have gotten when female cow-orkers or my husband’s ex justify their tantrums, verbal outbursts or floods of tears because they were “PMSing” or because their tender feelings got hurt over something really stupid. It makes me want to apologize for my entire sex, sometimes. (“No, really, please, just TELL me what you mean – I’m grown up enough to handle your being direct without crying on your shoulder. Really!”)

Sure, I PMS, and I hurt like a mad bastard with cramps sometimes, too – but I am also aware of this happening, and so make an extra effort to exert self-control before I yield to the urge to strangle folks or act like a total bitch. It’s not impossible to do; it’s simply that these people want an excuse to NOT have to control themselves or else manipulate a situation to their advantage. I say, if they really hurt that badly, or really feel that emotionally unstable, for heaven’s sake, go see a doctor and see what can be done, because something is wrong, and making your cow-orkers miserable solves nothing. As far as the crying goes – 9 times out of 10, it’s nothing more than an effort to manipulate a situation so they can come out on top. [I know of two cow-orkers who managed to get reviews softened at my old workplace by doing just that, simply because the supervisor got so rattled by female tears. *And they were proud of this.* Feh.]

It’s not that I don’t have sympathy when people are crying because of a personal tragedy or a real issue. That’ll happen to everyone on occasion. But people who turn on the waterworks over stupid crap? Please. I hand them a box of Kleenex and just wait it out. Oddly enough, it’s amazing how quickly the crying dries up when the cryee realizes it doesn’t get them anywhere.

38

Scylla , just an observation but…

shouldn’t your quasi-equal have supported your decision to reprimand this particular individual, in whatever fashion you decided to do it and whatever feelings you trampled over. Sounds like they were maybe a little weak for not backing you up and that the easiest way to assuage the ‘injured’ party was to agree to discuss how you ‘hurt’ them, rather than reinforcing the fact that $1000 of calls is taking the proverbial.

End of observation.

39

Feelings became important ever since the human brain was able to process emotions. We all have them and they’re an integral part of the human experience. There’s no reason why we should act like they don’t exist.
What’s a fallacy is the idea that a person is soley responsible for his own feelings. If that were true we’d all force ourselves to be happy all the time. How one behaves based on ones feelings is definately a matter of personal responsibility; adults throwing tantrums is totally unacceptable; but you can’t really control your own emotions.
Emotional pain is a real as physical pain. Because it’s harder to document, our science-obsessed society wants to ignore it. But we can’t pick and choose what aspects of humanity we want to acknowledge. Feelings are important and you have to take them into account when dealing with people.

In general, that is. In your situation, the other guy was acting pretty lame.

40

What’s this folderol about feelings, Scylla? The guy is using company resources, and isn’t listening to you. Feelings has nothing do to with it – he’s pilfering, you’re enforcing. Your colleague needs to reinforce your authority, not sap it; you’ve probably been bent too far already.

As for your millionth whine about your hurt feelings after you hurt others’ feelings, irony isn’t quite the word.