Yes we are soft and also soft in the head. Our children reach college with only 15% knowing how to read at their age level, for instance, and about the same per cent know even simple geography or can do ordinary arithmetic.
Our answer is grade inflation. This began when the pupils were put in charge of the institutions by welcoming their criticisms of their teachers (merit pay, student evaluation of teachers even in college). The grades zoomed up so now almost half the grades given in the average college are A’s with a few B’s thrown in. Students indignantly declare they have a high average if they encounter a professor who still makes them know anything. The rest of the teachers are assigning “projects” and “portfolios” and students get points in college mainly for these things, that involve handing things in AND FOR ATTENDANCE AND GOOD BEHAVIOR!!!
Professors are supposed to submit detailed syllabi announcing when every test will be so students can evade them and do makeup. Nobody takes attendance in college and the students come and go as they please, half of them are usually tardy. And they eat and drink noisy foods while the “professors” are lecturing or otherwise holding class.
The syllabi have to state just how much per cent is given for every little thing and only 15% is for grades on tests, in most cases.
About 5 years ago I was in a cab in Chicago and the Palestinian or Lebanese or Pakistani cab driver was telling me how he attends universities over here when he gets enough money together and already has an engineering degree but wants a more advanced one, and he commented that in all his engineering courses at several universities he has never encountered anybody but “foreigners, like me,” as he put it.
Our youths are not taking up anything challenging and aren’t interested in anything but “fun and excitement” as the boat people children who escaped Asian dictators put it when they were asked to say what American values were; these boat children made A’s and B’s right away in our worst slum schools. The study of them, reported in SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN
, noted that their values included valuing education (not just for some practical reason like some of us do) and family, but in the sense that they actually found their fun in the family and not down in the video game arcade or the mall or the street corner.
America will always be strong as long as we continue to admit foreigners who think a free education is an opportunity rather than a burden or something to get over with, and who want other opportunities that our country provides. What is to become of the last two completely spoiled generation, one doesn’t know but they will probably be supported by hard working foreigners who will become so Americanized eventually as to spoil their children and more engineers and doctors will have to be imported and so on.
A group of women commentators on tv was talking about how their own children are spoiled (one is a big city newspaper columnist, for instance). One of them said, “I just don’t understand it, I gave them everything.” It happens that NONE OF THESE EDUCATED MOTHERS HAD EVER HAD THEIR NOW SPOILED CHILDREN DO ANY CHORES OR GET A JOB WHEN THEY WERE OF AGE!!! And they talked on about problem children in great puzzlement.
When children used to be made fun of in school they fought or else put up with it. None of them had been so oversensitized by well-meaning parents to take being teased as grounds for killing anybody in sight.
Someone above mentioned that we always think every generation is spoiled but somehow the way kids are today with their lack of manners, at least in urban areas, their lack of brains, their already fat bellies from continual snacking, and so on, seem different.
However, we must not generalize too much. When I cross the border from Metropolitan Chicago into Wisconsin there is an immediate difference in the people, including in the teenagers. Even the ones who are already disfigured by obligatory tattoos and piercings ARE POLITE. I can’t understand this, because American tv and movies have so homogenized people that they CAN’T be different from one place to another. Yet they are. You go into a store and the teenager in charge ACTUALLY LOOKS AT YOU, SMILES, AND SAYS HI!!! In the CMA or Chicago Metropolitan Area they don’t even look at you but talk with each other and slouch around in offensive outfits when they are not on the phone with their friends.
What’s your evidence that these are “patriarchal” vs.“matriarchal” qualities? Can you list some patriarchal and matriarchal qualities so I can get a sense of what you even mean by those words?
I agree that we as a society are overprotective of children. We want to design their lives so that they never experience adversity or pain at school, never fail at anything, heaven forbid that they see any titties or violence - I think it’s an artificial existence and poor preparation for adulthood, because eventually pain, failure, sexuality, and violence touch everyone’s lives at some point.
I too wonder how Americans are going to react to this war on terrorism if young men and women start dying and/or being drafted into the military. However, I really like RickJay’s post - the rest of the world has always underestimated America’s resolve, seen us as weak and soft. Members of “The Greatest Generation” didn’t want to fight and die any more than anyone today does - Read Catch-22 sometime. But they did what they had to do.
As for images of Real Men in movies, there has been a shift away from Sam Spade and toward the Father Figure/Family Man (Think Who’s the Boss? or Everybody Loves Raymond) or the nebbishy guy (Seinfeld) in cinema and popular culture. But Rambo, Gladiator, Braveheart, Band of Brothers, and The Sopranos (to name a few) show that male violence and physical courage are still part of our culture.
only made it about 4 lines into the last post and determined he didn’t attend school where i went!
i don’t buy the “feninization” of america. what other countries and cultures fail to recognize is because of our industrial might, high standard of living, education blah blah blah… we are able to conduct wars by flying high out of danger, pushing buttons and watching the carnage on CNN safe and sound. to me, thats not wimpy, thats fucking smart! i have no fear that our military has the will and the capability to snuff anyone we chose. its just a matter of how long and what it will end up costing.
i think there is far too much violence on tv, movies, games. cant finish, got to go…
hey, i made it back! sorry, mag, but i do not agree. the kind of violence kids are exposed to everyday on tv, movies and games is totally unrealistic. guns everywhere, always shooting. in my world, i dont need an automatic weapon to blast everything and everyone i come accross. the violence the kids see is entertainment (violence=entertainment? pretty goddamn sick if you ask me) and its just not like that in the real world. i will bring up the story agian of my friend’s father who spent his entire carreer in law enforcement (as a highway trooper) who never pulled his gun! yet, all we ever see on tv is the gun out and shooting! i agree that violence does exist now and always will, but lets not glamorize it and portray it as an acceptable response to all situations. better yet, lets focus on the consequences of violence and maybe we will see a reduction? wishful thinking… anyway, i think i am getting away from the point of the thread, so i will step down and shut up now!
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I never made the arguement that anyone should intentionally inflict pain upon themselves to feel masculine or anything else. Growing up I certainly never intentionally inflicted pain upon myself. Pain itself might not be beneficial but learning to deal with it certainly is. If you raise a kid who’s never experienced any form of pain in his life what’s going to happen when he experiences it as an adult? You can’t eliminate everything in this world that hurts. You can’t make everything out of Nerf.
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I played baseball for many years before arriving at my 7th grade school. For some reason everytime we picked baseball teams I was always one of the last people to be picked. This happened for weeks even after I showed that I could hit the ball better then average and I could play any position with some degree of competence. But yes I agree that it sucked and my feelings were hurt. But somehow I managed to deal with it.
I ended the 7th grade as 1st chair violinist in the school orchestra. In 8th grade the same orchestra teacher started me out as a 2nd violinist 8th chair which was the very last chair in our orchestra. My feelings were hurt, I felt betrayed, and I was very angry. But again I managed to deal with it.
And living a pain free life won’t help you in the long run either. If all you know are ups you’ll never be able to deal with the downs.
Marc
Women: Janet Reno, Chyna, Jeanne d’Arc
Men: Richard Simmons, Dr. Drew, Mr. Rogers
From the preceding, start picking your army, hmmm?
“Infinite Justice” was a lousy name. Avoid religion like the plague. “Crusade,” Bush will never live that down.
On the broader question, is America too soft? Probably. Sorry don willard could you repeat what you said? I was eating. Sure we will do something. Wait until there is a casualty, oh lawdy! Quick, “America Out of Afghanistan!,” “Bring our Boys Home.” 25 people can die in a multi-car accident, no real reaction. Three kids die in a pool, huh? Three get shot, pandemonium. Three military casualties, same. Yes, PC hand wringing, whatever you want to call it. Some deaths are more important than others. Pool control NOW! Seriously, pools can’t defend you, aren’t protected by the Constitution, and “kill” a lot of people (mostly children). One leading “cause” of paralysis also.
If you hear “patriarchy” used in an overwrought, self-aggrandizing, paragraph one more time, will you vomit? Definitely here. Marilyn French, “Feel good and be all that you can be, la, la, la, la, crap, 10 dollar word for .25 idea, hug a tree, la, la. No need to work hard for a greater good, la, la, Wicca, and so on…” Not that I necessarily even disagree with her. It is hard to tell sometimes. Was that from an introduction or preface? I sure hope so. Ah, AHunter3, if smacking planes into buildings is “masculine,” I’m with you here. What about systematically drowning your kids? (happened twice now recently)
I hate to say it, Vinnie, but your situation reminds me of the radicalized Muslims.
Also, now that I think of it, Kip Kinkel and the Columbine Killers (great name for a band ;))
I’m not going to jump down your throat, I’m going to assign you a book report. I think you’d find Reviving Ophelia by Mary Pipher to be interesting and maybe eye-opening. While it may be disproportionately negative(depending on the students behavior,) boys still receive the lion’s share of attention in school. Boys, the misbehaving ones that is, comendeer so much of their teachers’ attention that better behaved students, primarily girls, suffer for it. The squeaky wheel gets the oil… this is one of the first books (1994) that’s made light of this, and proposes ways to prevent it. As of yet, I haven’t seen any evidence that the situation is improving, because some solutions that seem fool-proof, like single sex classes, have been shown in studies to not be very effective in reversing the damage done to the girls who were used to being ignored in co-ed classes. However, this too has to be taken with a grain of salt, since I know there are books about boys that suggest that despite having more attention they’re growing up equally malajusted.
In case anyone wonders why I call myself “sqweels” this is it.
ALSO . .
**“Oh seriously. The “masculine” value system in place in nation-cultures such as that ruled by the Taliban is imposed on their people. Our “feminized” value system in which we, as individuals, are comparatively free to choose what we will believe and do with our personal lives, are internal. They are ours, and we will not be weak in their defense.”
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Could we please knock it off with the “tough guy America = Taliban” arguments? What a cheap shot THAT is. I see. Those that question whether or not America is “soft” would like to see women walk 10 steps behind men. :rolleyes:
Since I used a painful childhood experience to better myself I’m the same as a terrorist. And because I was not popular in school, I’m like one of the Columbine killers. Sqweels, if that were true, there would a hell of lot of more dead Americans from acts of terror and school killing then there are now. :rolleyes:
Since when did those who call upon America to “sack up” neccesarily become Mullah Omar-level misogynists? I’m simply bringing up the point that war is ugly. Maybe were not ready for it.
I cannot believe you said this.
All that is good in our society comes from patriarchal values? Could you please explain to me how people (men **and **women) sorting through the rubble is derived from male power?
Can you give me evidence that feminists sit back and let the men protect them?
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Well rescue workers are organized within a strict hierarchy with underlings following the orders of those above them in the chain of command. I’ve never heard any feminist critics of patriarchy refer to hierarchy as anything other then a male trait. Of course that might be the extremist feminist who seem to think that man equals bad.
Marc
It is not a “cheap shot”. I think it’s nothing’ but net. I do indeed believe that the type of person who believes we are “soft” in comparison with our attackers are indeed likely to prefer that our women “stay in their place”. And quit “feminizing” America.
If the person in question never needs to fight a war (like 90 percent of the people in America), then there’s nothing wrong with living a pain-free and pampered life. Why introduce unnecessary suffering to “toughen” somebody up if they never need to be tough? And nowadays, with people like Bill Gates rising to unprecedented positions of power, physical toughness and courage are not as important as intelligence, social skills, and a little old-fashioned cunning.
I have trouble believing that things like toughness, bravery, and tolerance for pain are culturally determined anyway. I think it has more to do with human nature and individual personality traits (some people will always be tougher than others). Assuming that only a small portion of our population will ever need to fight a war, I’m confident that this country can muster up enough fighters to do the job that needs to be done.
Obviously, a man who has never seen the inside of the pecking order of high school girls - very hierarchical. Also, aggressive, competetive…all those non “feminine” qualities. Or maybe high school girls are more masculine than we think?
There are certainly some extreme feminists that say good traits (nurture, compromise, communicate) are female and bad traits (agressiveness, violence, competativeness) are male. This feminist thinks they are full of it. I think traits are human, that some traits (due to a combination of hormones, gender, and nurture) show up more often in men than women, but there is no personality trait that exclusively belongs to one gender over the other.
It’s not the feminization of America, but the feminization of males in America. I think we require both the masculine and feminine among us to lead equally. However, females are being encouraged to be more masculine, to take interest in sports, to pursue careers in science, to set out to “prove” that women can do it (come on, duh, of course women are capable). Men are being taught to be sensitive, talk about their feelings, accept alternative lifestyles, etc. The result is a population that consists of a lot of half-assed male/female hybrids. A male today that is the embodiment of masculinity is frowned upon as a stupid insensitive oaf who is bent on the destruction of others. A female that is the embodiment of femininity is labeled an “airhead” who aspires to serve the males. Those stereotypes aren’t true, but they force people out of traditional gender roles. Men have facial hair and fart. They like to shoot at things. There are exceptions to that. But I want to put Bubba and his beer-chuggin’ buddies on those front lines. The women and all the feminine boys at home would feel safer knowing they are out there being heroes.
They pierce their ears, wear their hair long, do their nails, and wear make-up. How much longer before men wear skirts? I’m wondering if gender roles are switching? That’d be fine I guess, as long as somebody is masculine and somebody is feminine. There are just too many fence-riders right now.
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I’m not interested in introducing unnecessary pain to toughen anyone up. What I’m saying is that you cannot remove all pain from life. Incidentally toughened is your word it isn’t one I’ve used up until now. I did not limit pain to the physical realm of human existence but for some reason that is what you’re trying to do. You don’t think Bill Gates experienced disappointment and hardships that he had to deal with? Of course he did, we all do.
I’m confident that we could find plenty of people willing to fight. What i’m not confident about is that the general population is willing to see American soldiers and foreign civilians getting killed.
Marc
Oh, Dale the Bold? Kindly step this way.
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Heh heh, I brought that up in my college sociology class when some women made the assertion that men dominate while women attempt to make sure everyone has an equal say. From what I remember about high school the girls were worst then the boys in some regards.
Marc