The Friend Zone

[Troppus]

@pancakes3

2 - Troppus, I was replying to your anecdote tongue-in-cheek. The rose stunt was awkward and inappropriate. Even if the guy was attractive, you would have a bit of the screeching violins in the back of your head. The stunt was also very well embodies the creepy, entitled nature that many guys who complain about the “friend zone” have regarding courtship. Chances are he went away from the experience moaning about how chivalry is dead and that women who claim they are looking for romance really in fact do not appreciate true romance.

Nailed it.

[Dangerosa]

@Bosstone

I’ll answer that, because what the hell, I feel like airing my insecurities today. At least in my personal situation, it’s not that I don’t value friendship, but right now I value having a relationship far, far above it. That’s only partly a conscious choice; right now I’m pretty much incapable of seeing single female acquaintances as friends rather than potential partners. I’m quite certain that if I had a partner, I could relax and just be friends. But of course, that insecurity in itself is not attractive, and I’m quite certain it colors my behavior regardless of how I try to correct for it.

I understand I’m strange. My husband and I were firm friends for eleven years before we started dating - we are going on two decades of couplehood. But here is the issue with what you just said…

You like me enough - as a person - to want to date me…but you don’t like me enough - as a person - to want to be my friend. That doesn’t parse out for a lot of women - or rather, it parses to “you don’t actually give a damn about me as a person, only as a potential sex partner and/or accessory”

And I suspect that is coming through. You aren’t valuing women as people - i.e. aren’t willing to have them as friends - you only value them right now as potential partners. If that is coming through - why in the hell would any girl want to date you (unless she was looking for cheap sex).

Now, here is a secret from me and my strange girlfriends - many of whom have long term marriages with guys they were friends with…sometimes that trip through the friend zone is a screening process. Especially as women go from “looking for boyfriends” to “looking for a long term relationship” Are you kind? Are you responsible? Do you treat your friends well? Is our sense of humor compatible? Do we have anything to talk about? At some point you go from “oh, yeah, I’ll do that” - so that if “that” asks you out on a date you are so there…to valuing something other than mere physical attraction (which isn’t to say chemistry isn’t important - its just that it isn’t all that.) If you are never coming out of the friend zone with a date - either there really isn’t any chemistry on the part of any of your female friends - or you aren’t relationship material.

[Troppus]

@Dangerosa

You like me enough - as a person - to want to date me…but you don’t like me enough - as a person - to want to be my friend. That doesn’t parse out for a lot of women - or rather, it parses to "you don’t actually give a damn about me as a person, only as a potclaimential sex partner and/or accessory.

This is close to how I feel. I would have said “So you like the way I look and wish to bed me or claim me, but you don’t care what my interests, hobbies, opinions, political leanings, etc are. If you did respect me as a person, you would bother to find out if we have anything in common. If we do have something in common, you would enjoy my friendship even if I’m not available or attracted to you.” Believe it or not, women are ends in themselves, and nor just means to your end. (cue Vinyl Turnip)

[pancakes3]

There’s nothing wrong with seeing your friends as potential partners but there is a problem when someone starts moping once it’s been established that the friend does not also see you as a potential partner.

I’m not advocating never dating your friends. I’m just saying that if/when guys that do take that chance need to be mature with the answer even if it is an unpleasant one.

[I_Love_Me_Vol.I]

@even_sven

If protecting people from getting raped, stalked, or having their livelihood threatened from sex means that the extremely socially awkward lose some chances to hit on women that are out of their league, that’s unfortunate but it is what it is.

For the record, I entirely agree with you. I was only noting that it can be a tough situation for well-meaning men who can is not fluent in social cues. But as you say, it is what it is. Life’s not always a cushy bowl of kittens.

[Quercus]

@Troppus

Okay, how about a couple IRL examples from the cubicle farm? […]
. Another coworker asked if I were single, said he was asking for a friend. I said no, I’m in a relationship. He said cool, I’ll tell my buddy.

See, this is the one I’m not completely sure about. Is it lame and kind of insulting to Troppus to not have the interested guy (whether it’s a really a ‘friend’ or the coworker himself) own up and talk to** Troppus **directly, or is it polite – only since this is a workplace – to allow future workplace interactions to take place with less potential awkwardness?

[Troppus]

@Quercus

Is it lame and kind of insulting to Troppus to not have the interested guy (whether it’s a really a ‘friend’ or the coworker himself) own up and talk to** Troppus **directly, or is it polite – only since this is a workplace – to allow future workplace interactions to take place with less potential awkwardness?

Matter of personal opinion, I think. I wouldn’t bother with anyone who didn’t attempt to get to know me before asking me out, and I’m personally insulted by the action. (Explanation below) I wouldn’t respond rudely, though, I’d just say not interested. Some people are shy, or worried about offending, or can’t handle rejection and the high school approach may be their only hope. And some women may be fine with that approach. If she is shy, too, she may even find it charming.

Personally, I have no interest in anyone based solely on looks. I want to know a few things about someone and let them know who I am before considering a date. I will never understand how men can decide we need to spend a few hours together in a public venue before finding out if we have something in common. “Um…hey, I noticed you have boobs, and, well…I like boobs, so we should take them out on a date.”

Um, no. How do I know you aren’t a cat hoarder? Tea-partier? Conspiracy theorist? Smoker? Milk chocolate aficionado? Some people are incompatible, and his being interested in the way I look isn’t enough reason for me to seek his company.

[pancakes3]

It’s easier to set up the interview than to conduct the interview at a bar… if that analogy translates.

[even_sven]

@I_Love_Me_Vol.I

For the record, I entirely agree with you. I was only noting that it can be a tough situation for well-meaning men who can is not fluent in social cues. But as you say, it is what it is. Life’s not always a cushy bowl of kittens.

Thank you for clarifying. I get so frustrated at guys who want to make their social issues something that I’m supposed to manage or placate. I seriously had a guy break down and cry and rant for half an hour about how women are so unfair and unjust on a first date after I politely declined his attempt at a kiss. I’m sorry, I know life is tough but I just met you an hour ago and I owe you nothing. My only obligation in dating beyond general don’t-be-a-jerk, at least up until I’m making commitments to someone, is to myself.

The social anxieties of complete strangers = Not my problem