Witnessing, especially from newbies who have not yet established a pattern of interaction, is pointless. I, for one, am not going to listen to you because you have made zero effort to get to know people here, to post about movies and traffic and cats on a regular and establish a rapport with the people who hang out here. Polycarp commands respect when he talks about his faith because he has garnered a reputation here as a wise, kind friend who gives respect even to people who don’t share his faith.
When you witness to people you don’t know, you’re not talking to people; you’re talking at them, and I don’t like being hectored about religion by a stranger, and not that well-informed one at that. If you’re going to discuss religion here, you are going to need more than "The Bible sez. . . " because many people here are much more versed in Biblical exegesis than the average bear.
Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Minnesota Posts: 54
-the 54 posts denote a “newbie”, because i have heard from a friend only a few months ago about this board. Also people might have other things to do then to be on the internet and post on a message board every day of their lives. You know what gobear you are absoutly correct im probally way out of my leauge here, im sure there are many, many people here that know oddles more then me. Im just a kid that isnt well versed at any of this thing and not a good speaker at that. Should that deter me in my feeble effort to try to reach out to people? God help me, I hope not. Because friend what I am doing I do out of love. man I wish I could express that clearer. Im sorry if you feel that I am doing an inadequate job in doing so. Im learning, lol I learned quite a bit by just doing my OP. Please tell me what you think I could have made clearer in my post to help in this process. Thank you for you input.
4000+ posts and I’m not even sure what my reputation is. Anybody got a line on my pattern of interaction? Am I allowed to post in this thread?
So he’s only got 54 posts. He’s making his points just fine. I happen to disagree with every last one of them, but what’s wrong with the boy saying what he wants?
Polycarp im a bit confused, today you stated that you stated (in the homosexuality and the bible thread)
the question: Do you (one word can’t really encompass the whole question) [believe, trust, accept, follow] the whole bible.
and today you say
[quote]
Polycarp -This may sound like semantic nitpickery, but it is not – the key point is in following Christ, not in following the Bible. And that makes all the difference.
[quote]
you said you follow the bible in another post yet here you say to not follow it. can you please elaberate on your standpoint?
It’s about time I get a little recognition around here!
This is one of those “I’ll defend your right to say it” deals. It’s probably safe to say that we differ in pretty much every aspect … so let’s not plan a sleepover just yet.
<Rev. Lovejoy>Have you ever read this thing? Technically we’re not supposed to go to the bathroom.</Rev Lovejoy>
Let me give you an example of how Bible verse can be made to fit just about any ideaology. The following is a random passage from the Bible:
John 5:43-45
Interpretations:
Jesus understood the subtle art of manipulation in order to control masses of people who only heard of him, and didn’t neccesarily know him personally. The lesson here is that to be a cunning leader, you must remain mysterious to your followers.
Jesus wanted to spread the word of God all over the land, but was having no success in his native town, and so moved to Galilee to further his cause. The lesson here is that Jesus’ message is not just for one’s neighbors, but for total strangers as well.
Jesus was a charlatan whom the people of his local town grew tired of. The lesson here is that if at first you don’t succeed, try try again.
The complacent people of Nazareth grew decadent on their own fine living, and so ignored the preachings of our comrade, Jesus. The lesson here is that the revolution of the proletariat requires tireless preaching regardless of what town you are in.
(This one is very offensive, but it is here to make a point, so please forgive me)The Jew is at heart a liar and a cheater. Our white brother Jesus was attempting to educate some of these mongrels, and yet they cast him out for his telling the truth of Aryan superiority. The lesson here is that the white man must persist in the preservation of his ways, no matter how many towns he gets kicked out of.
The persecution mythos is prevalent in many holy texts. The Jesus symbol is so effective in this passage mostly because of this archetype of oppresion that speaks to many people from many backgrounds. The lesson here is that holy texts base themselves on archetypes and symbols that deeply resonate in the human psyche.
I could go on and on, and with whichever passage from the Bible you choose. The point here is that any passage, any word that is put down on paper, can be subject to the wildest of interpretations. If you are basing your entire moral structure on a book, rather than your own personal judgement and experience, then you may be in for major problems later on in life. But you don’t need me to tell you this. You’ll figure it out as life progresses.
Instead, open up your brain for just a second. Look, I don’t believe God exists, so maybe you won’t even listen to this. But just in case.
Let’s assume, for the moment, that not only does God exist, but that He’s pretty much the guy described in the bible, both old and new testaments. His appearances on this earth are pretty rare and carefully planned, yes?
Do you really, in your heart of hearts, believe that God interferes in the workings of our lives to the extent that he healed your pastor but that He kept a hands off approach and didn’t delay the flights which crashed into the World Trade Center, killing hundreds or thousands of God-fearing men and women, including Father Mychal Judge? Was the guy in my link any less deserving of his life continuing than your pastor? If so, is that the kind of God you think is worthy of worship?
Consider this for a little bit – if God exists, maybe He allows us to exercise free will, for better or worse, and your pastor got better with a little luck, a strong constitution and the benefit of living in a situation that afforded him good medical care. Likewise, He didn’t “send” the bad guys into the Trade Center, nor did He prevent it – that was man’s free will resulting in that tragedy.
Your pastor’s recovery is not proof of God’s existence – at least, not if God is good.
I think you caught him Nomadic one. Polycarp is a secular humanist in Christian drag. He agrees with the bible only so much as the bible agrees with him. Hit him with something out of the bible that he doesn’t like and you’ll get all sorts of talk of allegory, metaphor and mistranslation, and maybe even a fabrication or two (though never a lie;)) if I remember my last discussion with him correctly.
sigh Another incorrect analogy. I’ve yet to hear a witnessing Christian accurately protray someone else’s spiritual life. Instead, they’re forever saying that others are drowning or tied to railroad tracks or some gloom-and-doom assessment and rushing into save them.
A more accurate assessment of your actions would be this:
You’re a fireman answering a call about a burning building. Along the way you’re spraying down every building you encounter because, “all houses catch fire, someday! Better safe than sorry!” Meanwhile the people in the burning building are wondering how long will it be 'til you, the fireman, shows up.
Nomadic_One, while your goal is a noble one, you’re actions are horribly misguided. You’re certainly not the first person to come witnessing nor will you be the last. I’ve yet to hear of anyone who’s come here to witness and ever make ONE successful convert. I’ve also yet to hear someone say anything that would make me want to convert. All they say is that I’m going to hell because I’m gay or because I practice the wrong religion. None of them have ever stopped to ask what my religious/spiritual practices are and tried to understand them. They simply assumed I whatever I was doing was wrong and it was necessary for them to convert me to the “right” practice.
Another point to consider, do you honestly believe that anyone here has NOT heard the Christian message? Your profile states you’re in Minnesota, the upper midwest. I’m willing to bet you’ve grown up in western culture which has been throughly Christian for at least the past 900 years! Do you seriously think that anyone under the age of ten hasn’t heard the Christian message?
Instead of shouting into the wind and hoping someone hears your voice, try doing that would really make a difference; do volunteer work with your church. Or do volunteer work for your city, in homeless shelters or soup kitchens. There’s an opportunity to let you actions speak louder than your words.
Which reminds me of one of the best analogies I’ve ever heard about the kind of well-intentioned but forehead-smackingly point-missing that this kind of witness is prone to.
Imagine a small number of people who live far inland, in a desert. By story contrivance, they’re now on a raft, on the ocean–they’re on it with a few other folks who know the coast, know large bodies of water. It’s a calm day, the surface is very nearly just a smooth mirror, the only clouds up there are cottony cumulus in an upper sea of blue. It is, to those who know the surroundings, gobsmackingly beautiful.
It isn’t to the suddenly-transplanted desert dwellers, though. It’s alien. There’s no land in sight, and this weak contrivance they’re floating on keeps moving every time weight shifts on it. Hearts are in throats. And then they realize something even more horrifying–these other people just dove off the raft into this unnatural abomination that is an expanse of liquid. They’re swimming–it’s a good day for it–but to the others’ eyes, they’re in some terrible, nigh unexplainable peril.
And it is fearfully baffling that the swimmers just won’t listen when they are so obviously in acute danger. How could they not be? It’s in plain sight, the way they’re flailing about in that awful sea. That they’re laughing and insist the water’s fine, that they’re having a fine time, that’s strange–they must be blind to the dangers they’re in. Or they do recognize their danger, but they perversely refuse to admit it, in wily plans to drag others down with them.
Okay, so we can’t see whether you gave some change to that beggar on the corner, or donated blood, or helped an old lady across the street. But that doesn’t mean we can’t see what sort of person you are. I don’t know how much time you’ve spent on other message boards, but it is certainly possible to discover over time what sort of person the being on the other end of the screen is, not only by what they say but how they say it.
This is, in part, gobear’s point; at the moment you haven’t been here long enough for us to have some sense of what sort of person you are (and thus whether or not you’re somebody we ought to listen to about what is, after all, an exhortation to a major life change). Stay around for a while, join in discussions on other topics, and generally make yourself at home. We’ll learn more about you, you’ll learn more about us, and the dialogue between us will be that much more constructive.
I’ll second gobear’s opinion of Polycarp, but naturally it is up to you to decide for yourself whether he is “a wise, kind friend”, a “secular humanist in Christian drag” or some evil alien force bent on world domination. (Just as long as you vote for him for President. ;))
Well Manhattan, last night I honestly gave this subject alot of thought. I thank you for the suggestion that I aught to take a look at my faith. Last night after thinking about it I realized just how precious and good my faith is. THANK YOU! you have inspired me to look deeply at why i believe and reaffirm my faith in God. I needed that.
well from the short time ive spent on the boards, i have seen ploycarp as a thoughtful and intelligent person. But I have also viewed him as a hypocrite of sorts on a couple issues. On two seperate occasions in the last four days i have seen this.
the question: Do you (one word can’t really encompass the whole question) [believe, trust, accept, follow] the whole bible.
I often find myself feeling like proselytisers are berating me about how I need to work with their terrific European history tutor, and aren’t willing to listen when I point out to them that my major is physics, I don’t need European history to graduate, and would rather work with someone who can explain differential equations to me.
(And I haven’t been in college for years. And nobody ever explained diffy-q to me satisfactorily.)
Nomad, I’m not speaking for Polycarp but, from my pespective it seems what he was saying was that he does revere* the Bible, but doesn’t feel that it’s the basis of his faith, rather it’s the book about the ideas that are the basis of his faith, much like the fact that the flag represents what our country is based on, but isn’t actually that basis itself.
One point I’d like to make, I’ve known people who were very religious, and people who were quite spiritual. The two terms are not synonymous. In my experience spiritual people are often more accepting and respectful of differing beliefs, because they aren’t tied up in a specific doctrine.
Neither do I. The notable Christian apologists that I know would never, I believe, say something silly like that. If a so-called apologist is giving you an answer like that, then I would say he is not a very good apologist at all; rather, he is a very, very bad one.
**
I’m curious. Which apologists are you reading?
I am also wondering which apologists you are reading?
