I think the operative word here is seems.
*Of course,*they do! But, cracking open a case of beer and watching a game isn’t exactly high drama, now is it? Gays engaged in mundane, everyday activity doesn’t make the news because isn’t very newsworthy – who’s gonna stay tuned for film at 11 of normal behavior?
And I take extreme offense to the idea that you think us crazy backwards straight people can’t also enjoy your culture. Aside from bending a man over my coffeetable in my living room without permission there is, I assure you, nothing that you can discuss or celebrate that I would harass you or berate you for.
I like the descriptions earlier in this thread about a SUBculture better than this argument. There is no one gay culture, and while there may be a significant number of pride-marching, rainbow-wearing, in-your-face, get-used-to-it people around, there’s also a whole lot like me, that are not connected to that subculture at all.
So to answer your question, Belrix, there most definitely is a gay subculture, and that’s usually what you see on TV. I don’t know the numbers, but most gay people I know are not involved in any of that. We do hang out and eat chex mix and watch the game and that’s why you don’t see us in the media. We’re the boring ones.
I never implied that. I have straight friends who are just as much into gay culture as I am.
Kudos, Ooner – You took the words right outta my mouth and said it in a better way.
My random guess is that the “flamin’ homosexual” subculture group act that way just to annoy and shock the straight-laced conservative folks. 
Keep in mind it’s those who are unafraid to be “out there,” launching court cases, challenging the law, etc., who are fighting for all of our rights - including the rights of the “boring ones” - so a little credit would be nice.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to crack open a beer, grab some Chex mix, and watch the game. Wait, shit, I’m still at work…
The first gay guy that I hung out with regularly I actually met through Pagan circles – he introduced me to the local Neopagan community when I was 16. Phillip was a wonderful, caring, thoughtful guy, and incidentally a radical fairy.
I lost touch with Phillip for several years. Next time I saw him, his sweetheart was named Elizabeth, and he was utterly baffled. He’d been as radical as the next queer a couple years earlier. He had spent more than a year helping his boyfriend as the bf died of AIDS. And, he told me, he’d excoriated so-called “bisexuals” for trying to get the bost of both worlds, for being hypocrites who couldn’t admit to their own sexuality.
Elizabeth, he told me with a wry smile, was karma.
That surprised me: before Elizabeth, I’d had no idea that bisexuals weren’t welcomed by some queer activists. As I’ve hung around queer folk, I’ve not met very many that would be that bigoted and obnoxious – but I’ve met a couple. I haven’t really noticed any correspondence between the tweaker bigot queers and the flaunting-my-sexuality queers.
One more quick story: I worked briefly with Act Up! in Durham, when some legislators were trying to outlaw anonymous AIDS testing. I think about 2/3 of the people at the organizational meeting I was at were more-or-less queer. And probably the same number of them were completely straightlaced-looking. So while some of the glt folks fighting for rights flame like bananas foster, not all of them do.
Ok, joining the debate late…
You see it as members of our group screaming. In some cases you are right, it is screaming. This is not the norm, it is an extreme example which people notice more for its in your face nature.
There are some things which are inherently gay. Circuit parties, drag shows, poppers, anonymous sex with a window washer who has buns so tight… cough Forgive me, I was distracted.
The portrayal is true for some, but not for all.
I and my husband do have some art on the walls that would be considered homoerotic. So what? We have art that isn’t as well. Not every gay man’s home looks like a Mappelthorpe exhibit.
Being gay does affect one’s outlook. Sexuality isn’t one little aspect of a life. It is a part of one’s existence which is interconnected with the rest of what makes up a person’s identity.
With the focus that is placed on gay men, lesbians, transgendered, et al, it affects so many aspects of our lives, that when we decided to not live in the closet, our difference is shoved so deeply in our faces and down our throats by the media, “religious” intolerant people(like Phelps, Buchanan, and Fallwell), and others, that we have little option but to see ourselves as an outsider and behave accordingly.
Of course, your milage might vary.
I just wanted to say to the OP that I see nothing in wrong or inflammatory or insulting in anything you’ve posted here. You had a valid question, you posted in the correct forum, and in spite of Scott Evil seeming to get his nose out of joint for no reason that is apparent to me, I don’t think you intended any homosexual bashing or anything of the kind. Just so you know.
There wil be NO debate to join-this is IMHO, not Great Debates, people. Please respond to the thread title, not each other, or there’s gonna be some serious ass-whippin’ (or not, if you’re into that sort of thing).
I have to say, I also see this as a legitimate line of questioning.
To summarize the best point of the thread so far, IMHO, not all gay people are alike. The reason you notice some more than others is because some are more noticeable.
It’s easier for most people to pick out the gay people who conform more closely to the contemporary stereotype. Therefore, those are the ones you notice. They’re usually the ones who take a very vocal, active stance in defense of equal rights for homosexuals, and they do a great job of raising awareness of the gay population.
There are a large number of gay people who don’t conform to the stereotype. They’re harder to notice, and therefore tend to get a lot less time in the spotlight. As has been pointed out, what’s more dramatic; drag queens out partying, or two homebodies zoning out to Buffy the Vampire Slayer and eating Cheezits?
So the media tends to lump all gay people into the easily available stereotype, therefore making the story easier for consumers to digest. The fact that it’s misrepresenting the population as a whole, and confusing people as to the nature of gay life, is incidental. But the fact is, there are as many gay lifestyles as there are gay people. That’s just harder to get into a three-minute news blurb than “lookit them crazy gay people, at it again”.
Personally, I’ve never been comfortable in bars, don’t drink or do drugs, and never went through a really promiscuous phase. I’ve finally found a partner who I think is the most loveable human on the planet, and we’re working hard to build a loving, fun, and lasting relationship. It’s no better or worse than any other gay lifestyle, but it’s the lifestyle that makes us happy. Walking the dogs, doing the dishes together, watching movies, playing games with friends… it’s heaven.
The other thing to remember is that being outrageous, strange, bizarre, promiscuous, different, flamboyant, and/or contentious is not a crime. While I don’t choose the stereotypical gay lifestyle, I’m appalled that people tend to regard it with horror, as if being all those things makes discrimination against people legitimate. Sure, some gay people do things that some straight people find outrageous. So what? Just because we behave differently, it doesn’t mean that we deserve to be treated as anything less than equal.
Finally, imagine if you will that the only mental image you had of straight people was news clip footage from titty bars. How would you feel about straight people?
Excuse me, but did I imply there was gay bashing going on? No. My nose is firmly in joint, thank-you-very-much. The OP had legitimate questions that I tried to answer honestly from my own perspective. If that’s too “in your face,” well, then, I’ll put myself out to pasture for having convictions and principles, based on my experience and knowledge.
If anything, I was pissed off when it was implied I should “get out of [whoever’s] face,” and the implication that somehow Pride parades are some kind of farce.
If you think I’m some big flaming queen who shoves his sexuality and culture (yes, we have a culture) down everyone’s throat, you are sadly mistaken. I accept that there are many gay/les/bi people who prefer to be low-key. As a matter of fact, I’m more or less middle-of-the-road, veering slightly towards activism.
However, if I were to decide that “middle-of-the-road” or “vanilla” queers somehow invalidated my personal politics, then that would make me homophobic. Sorry. I dealt with my own internalized homophobia for too long, and I’m beyond that. We make our own choices as to how we’re going to live our lives, and in what way (if any) we’re going to be political. I’ve made my choice. So stop trying to tell me I have some kind of problem because I’ve established my own principles. It just so happens that those principles include those other queers (most of whom whould shudder to be called that) that don’t quite agree with me. But I will never, ever turn my back on them, regardless of petty disagreement. See, I can accept them, even though I don’t agree with their politics. The sad thing is, a lot of them can’t accept people like me.
Pride parades are carnivals. They are a riotous celebration with all the attendants thereof - excess, glitz, frivolity, noise, fun, gaiety of all sorts, risquéness, misrule, flamboyance, camp, etc. There is a political point too, being that we do not care enough anymore about others’ opinions of us that we can’t get out on the street and have a grand old time. They evolved from political demonstrations that basically said the same thing.
To put it another way, the question about “what kind of message does it send to the straight people?” is kind of up the wrong tree. We don’t put on Pride to show anything to the straight people. We do it as something that is not about straight people at all. It’s about us. If straight folks want to participate, they are welcome as the flowers in May, but they need to accept that it is not about communicating with, explaining anything to, or dealing with them.
I pretty much agree with the last sentence of MrVisible’s post. The pride parade is the biggest, flashiest, flamiest if you want, thing in gay culture. It isn’t typical of gay culture, but it is a valid, wonderful, fun thing.
Sadly, a lot of people take the misinterpretive focus on pride and whatnot and have a sort of reactionary anti-pride, anti-party, anti-flaming stance, which is sort of like if Canadians decided they hated hockey, beer, and the Mounties’ Musical Ride because that was the stereotype. I have no interest in getting rid or toning down Pride just because certain facile intellects can’t grasp the idea of a “party”.
Moving right along, there are any number of other kinds of celebrations that are as wild and fancy as pride parades. Oddly, nobody ever slags the Catholics for having Mardi Gras, and I’m not sure why we ought to have some kind of other standard of how proper we’re expected to keep our parties.
(As for grammar, “gay” and “lesbian” are not capitalized. “Queer” is not capitalized if you’re referring to sexual orientation/gender identification, but it can be if you’re referring to Queer culture, the Queer community, Queer theory, etc. Compare “deaf vs. Deaf”.)
Frankly I’m embarrassed by my preference anytime I see one of those “Wild on Spring Break” videos or similar.
Maybe I’m just a prude - Mardis Gras left me flat, I’ve never gone to a tittie bar, my wife and I have satisfying sex without the aid of trapeze bars or other floor or ceiling-mounted devices.
For the record - I haven’t felt flamed. I’m enjoying reading about the “boringness” that seems to be in the gay community as well as the reminder that my straight community has some genuine bent parts, too.
Is that not what I’ve been saying all along?
Jesus Christ.
I alway thought “Queer” was derogatory? I avoid using it the same way I’d avoid using the “N-word”.
We’ve taken it bacl.
And let me reiteratve what I said earlier:
I’m giving up on these threads.
As for a gay lifestyle - well, yes, it exists. It’s not just one way of living that’s the same for everyone, but - well, let me just explain how it is for me.
I have a gay lifestyle. Just like I have a Canadian lifestyle, Montrealer lifestyle, bilingual lifestyle, Kneedipper lifestyle, Esperantist poor political metro-geek linguistics major lifestyle. All of those things make me who I am and they all affect what I do and whom I hang out with.
Being gay has had to do with the entire path of my life for the last five years. Many doors have opened and others have closed because of my sexual orientation. It affects who I (note: I) see socially, what kind of politics I have, what kind of music and art I’ve been exposed to. Hell, if I weren’t gay I doubt I would be running for office now -it was my best friend, whom I met at a gay youth group, who politicized me.
So the fact is, yes, gay people can have a gay lifestyle. I’m having difficulty imagining a gay person whose sexual orientation doesn’t affect the way they live, at least in some way.
As for gay culture, which may be more apposite to what you’re asking about - yes, that exists too. Now I know a lot of gay people don’t participate in that. But that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist or that thing X, Y, and Z, isn’t a part of it, anymore than the fact that not all Canadians have read Atwood means that Atwood isn’t part of Canadian culture.
The fact is, there are certain cultural artifacts to which we have access as Queers that straight people often don’t have immediate access to. By which I mean it’s certainly possible that if I’d been born straight and had grown up not knowing gay people, I would have fallen in love with drag shows and campy disco and pop music, not to mention left-wing politics and polyamory, but I doubt it would have been so easy. Just like there are Americans who’ve read Atwood (or Alligator Pie)- but not as many as there are Canadians.
I concur. I doubt I’d have the talents I do were I not gay. Call me homocentric, but I doubt that I’d have the sensibility I do now , which has allowed me to express myself in music and lyrics.
I grew into a wonderful community of beautiful, caring people. People who became almost instant friends because we shared the bond - and maybe the burden - of being gay. I would not trade those people for the world, nor will I ever forget the halcyon days of my first summer on my own, in Montreal, when I truly came to be as a gay man.
It can be very hard to explain, but these friends of mine are the friends I always longed for when I was younger. In spite of our rows, our breakups, our personal tragedies - we’ve always been together. Is it just because we’re gay? Well, I don’t know. But it’s a wonderful feeling that I’ll never let go of. They are not only my friends - they are part of who I am.
Let me give you all an example of diversity within diversity: when I go to Pride parades, there’s a bunch of us. We’re not all the same, though. Three of my friends will be in drag. There will be a couple of butch lesbians. There’s usually an earthy lesbian. There’s my straight friend Tara, happily blowing bubbles along the parade route. And then there’s me - whatever I am. Do they represent me? No. I represent myself. But I’m proud to be with them, because in spite of - or even because of - our differences, we’re all still close. If that’s not diversity and acceptance, I don’t know what is.