The Gay "Lifestyle"

Great Debates
41

There’s no “we” that you can speak for, scott. I appreciate Belrix avoiding the word, because I do find it to be bothersome, and I would never use it to describe myself. Maybe you have “taken it back” but I haven’t. You are most decidedly not my idea of an accurate representation of the gay population as a whole (not that any one person could be), so your self-assigned representative position bothers me somewhat. Please at least try to get away from the assumption that we’re all in one big group. We’re actually a million little groups with just a thing or two in common.

Sorry if that runs into GD or Pit territory, but this feels more like a GD thread anyways.

42

Moving this to Great Debates.

43

Ooner - he said “we”, he didn’t say “gay people.”

44

Ah, the whole “queer” argument comes up yet again. If you’ve read any of my posts, you’ll note that I state again and again that I represent no one but myself.

We are in one big group, as far as our legal battles. Do we really have the time or energy to concern ourselves with what we’re going to call ourselves?

How can my self-representation bother you? I’m not representing you or anyone else - only myself. Why don’t you try and do the same for yourself, instead of berating those of us who have made decisions otherwise?

You might consider yourself homosexual, or maybe even gay, but obviously not queer. I’m all three. As far as I’m concerned, the first has to do with my sexual orientation. The second has to do with my culture and community. The third - which you find offensive - has to do with my politics.

You are free to make your own decisions as to where you stand, and as I’ve said before, I will never turn my back on anyone homosexual/lesbian/gay/queer/bi/trans/whatever. However, understand that this is where I’ve come to in my life, and I’m not changing my mind. But I cannot understate the fact that I will always support you and anyone who’s gay, regardless of politics. We’ve put up with enough external crap for too long. I’m not about to stir up internal crap. You might not agree with my politics, but be confident that I am on your side.

  • s.e.
45

The whole “queer” question interests me. What do y’all think about straightfolk using it?

Myself, I prefer it, because gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender takes too long to say. And I figure I’m a weensy bit queer myself, being pretty androgynous and having dated mostly bisexual women. Only a weensy bit, though.

There seem to be several separate questions going on:

  1. Is there a gay subculture?
  2. Is there anything wrong with the gay subculture?
  3. Does the gay subculture define itself in opposition to the straight culture?
  4. Are most gays part of the gay subculture?

I’d hazard that everyone agrees about 1 and 4 – there is a gay subculture, but it’s not true that most gays are a part of it.

Questions 2 and 3 are getting debated. I think, FWIW, that some aspects of the gay subculture can be dangerous – e.g., inasmuch as it includes unprotected sex with strangers, for example – but that for the most part, it’s no more problematic than, say, Rainbow Family subculture or gamer subculture. And Rainbow Family people have their drug issues, and gamers have their bathing issues.

Question 3 is complicated. I’d be interested in hearing some thoughts on it. Obviously, gay subculture isn’t defined entirely in opposition to straight culture. To what degree, however, is it so defined?

Daniel

46

His comment reads as “We, the gay community as a whole, have taken it back.” If he’s referring only to a select group of gay people, as he should be, it would be more appropriate to say that some people no longer find it offensive and use it to describe themselves.

On preview, I see scott has posted, so I’ll respond to that too:

This isn’t about legal battles, it’s about so-called gay culture, in which we are most definitely NOT one large group.

You’ve repeatedly posted in this thread about what gay people are trying to express, and continue to talk about gay culture as if there’s a big club and everyone is a member. I’m not trying to berate you, just let you know that you’re making some generalizations I’m not comfortable with. I know you haven’t claimed to speak for ALL gay people, but in your posts so far, by even acting as if there is one gay culture, you’re promoting stereotypes that don’t apply to all gay people.

First, I didn’t say the term Queer offended me, just that I wasn’t comfortable using it to describe myself. I think that “gay” is the only descriptor that’s really necessary for all 3 things above, and it’s the only one I generally use. You can call yourself queer all you want. I just appreciate Belrix not using it to describe me, due to it’s origins as an insult.

47

I never made generalizations. In fact, I expressed my belief that in spite of my own politics, I’d never turn my back on other gay people, regardless of their own politics or beliefs.

As for promotiting stereotypes, that’s a whole different argument. If I have a bit of lisp, am I suddenly a threat to your well-being? Of course, not all gay people are fem or have lisps or whatever. But some of us (not necessarily me) do. Are we less worthy of fundamental human rights? Do I need to once more bring up the fact that drag queens were among the ones rioting at Stonewall? You probably can’t remember, or weren’t born then, but we all owe a hell of a lot to those “people” - that many still consider undesirable, even within the community - to get to where we are now. Don’t spit on history, especially if the ramifications are going to allow you and your boyfriend to enjoy same-sex benefits and maybe even marriage.

The reason we use “Queer,” as far as I know, is because (a) it includes gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered people, (b) it allows srt8 people who are involved with the “queer” scene to be accepted, and © Hi, Opal!

In any case, as I’ve said countless times, I will not turn my back on you. We need to at least achieve our equal rights. That is more important to me than an argument which really belongs within the LGBT community rather than here in the open.

I wish you the best.
Cheers,

  • s.e.
48

Look, I’m not trying to take one step forward and two steps back. I’m just saying, let’s just chill out a bit and keep doing what we’re doing. If you want to stay at home and do nothing, fine. But don’t diss those of us out on the streets and in the courts so that one day you and your vanilla boyfriend can get married and enjoy same-sex benefits. If no one had done that here in Canada, same-sex benefits would not exist. So you have to make a decision: be afraid of your mother crying, or accept the benefits that those of us who aren’t afraid to be out are fighting for.

It doesn’t matter to me if you choose to be discreet and keep your homosexuality a secret to most. But, Jesus, you if you arrive at the decision that what others are doing - for our benefit as well as yours - is somehow wrong, all the while taking advantage of it - well, that spits in our face.

Do I have to state one more time that I am on the side of all L/B/G/Transgendered invliduals everywhere? Live your lives, out or not, but just be confident that there are others fighting for your rights, which, one day, we all will enjoy.

I have nothing against non-political queers (or whatever you want to call yourselves). I just hope you can appreciate what we’re doing, which will eventually benefit you.

  • s.e.
49

Jeez scott, I never accused you of being a threat to me or some sort of radical stereotype promoter. Either I mis-spoke or you’re a bit touchy.

I appreciate your political fight for rights and such, I was just a bit bothered by your immediate acceptance of the idea of a singular gay culture. I don’t have anything against even the most flaming of homosexuals, I just don’t consider myself part of that group and wanted to point out that we’re all different. Again, I’m not trying to undermine your political goals or criticize the relatviely large visible activist gay population, sorry if you took it that way.

As for use of the word Queer, I still think that “gay” describes the whole scene pretty well, politically and otherwise. Who says Bi/Trans/Straight people aren’t accepted if we’re called “gay” but they are if we’re called “queer”? Why unneccesarily adopt a commonly uncomfortable word to replace a common one that bothers few people?

50

As I’ve been at pains to point out, from the idea that there is a gay culture it does not follow that that culture is monolithic nor that all or even most gay people are a part of it.

51

Scott, I’m afraid I’m finding your attitude on this one rather insulated.

If you read my post above, I was very specific about acknowledging the contributions made to the struggle for progress by the more visible elements of gay culture; I really am grateful for the efforts that you and others like you make.

However, don’t make the mistake of assuming that your methods are the only ones that are effective.

Just because I’m not flamboyant, or in-your-face political, doesn’t mean I do nothing for the cause. The fact that my nature, my personality, doesn’t conform to the stereotype most people have simply makes me able to effect change in different ways.

For instance, just because I don’t flaunt it, doesn’t mean I’m not out. My workplace is very conservative, and yet I’m a well-liked, well-respected colleague to some very important people. I make no secret of being gay, but instead of taking a direct, in-your-face, I’mgaydealwithit appoach, I first let them get to know me as a friendly, competent professional, who’s easy to get along with. When I gradually, gently, introduced them to the fact that I’m gay, a good number of them were forced to re-evaluate their opinions of gay people in general, giving them a broader view, and making it easier for them to see us as human beings instead of stereotypes. This approach has worked well throughout my life; in fact, I count among my closest friends at least two men who would have, prior to meeting and getting to know me, described themselves as actively homophobic.

There is a place for more than one tactic in this fight, more than one strategy in this war. Discounting the efforts of thousands, millions of your fellow gay people simply because they’re subtler than your own gains you nothing.

52

I don’t follow. If the majority of gay people aren’t involved and those who are display a wide variety of beliefs and behaviors and appearances, how is that a singular gay culture? Just because they’re all gay? That’s a pretty flimsy thing to base a “culture” on.

53

Just for my personal edificatioon… what is “flaunting it?”

54

Well, for one thing, you can be aware of something without participating in it. A gay man who never goes to drag shows can nevertheless be familiar with drag as part of GC.

Furthermore, you can participate in a subset of the parts of GC. For all the gay culture I’ve absorbed and I participate in, I’ve never been to a circuit party.

Finally, culture doesn’t rely on majorities. I doubt that a majority of all 30 million Canadians has read Margaret Atwood. That doesn’t mean that Margaret Atwood isn’t Canadian culture.

55

I’ve been trying to point that out, the whole thread. If we weren’t different, what fun would it be? Think about it: this is a very unique culture that incorporates - ney, embraces – so many different “subcultures,” if you were. How vibrant is that? And, as I’ve said in another thread, I will never turn my back on a “subsection” of my community. Like I’ve said time and time again, I represent myself, and no one else.

IMHO, we’re all going to have to deal with “queer” soon enough, beecause it covers gay men, lesbian women, bisexual men and women, transsexuals, transgendered invidiuals, and those str8 friends of ours who love us. :slight_smile:

For the record: I AM HOMOSEXUAL. I AM GAY. AND I AM QUEER.

Come and get me.

-.s.e.

56

It never fails. Write a frickin’ opus, and the only thing that gets commented on is your one careless phrase.

Sheesh.

57

I suppose Hastur felt that it was important enough to comment on, MrVisible. You might want to address that.

58

Your “careless phrase” comes off as one hell of a Freudian slip.

59

I am gay and I have never felt more out of place then when I am around the “Gay Lifestyle”. By this, I mean the superficial, promiscuous, flamboyant folk. I am none of these things yet so far I am finding people like me to be pretty rare. I have no desire to prove to the world that I am “proud”. You know what? I am proud. Finally having some honesty in my life when I came out did wonders for my self-esteem. So I am not in any kind of denial. But I prefer to be who I am and not play a role. Please don’t misunderstand. I am not trying to put anyone down, I’m only saying that to be that way wouldn’t be real for me.

Scott, you seem to imply that the drag things and such are helping the cause. I respectfully disagree. I think to some, when they see thess displays, they think that everyone is like that and it just ain’t so.

Most people I tell are very surprised to find out that I am gay. Many who had prejudices when I first told them, find that as they get to know me, they change their opinion. I lived with two roomates at one time. One was a homophobe. He was friendly but told me in no uncertain terms that he didn’t agree with my “life style”. Later he realized that not all of us subscribe to, or have an interest in this lifestyle. He told me when he moved out two years later that I had changed his opinion and he apologized to me for his past feelings. Now, correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t that one of the goals, to just be treated like everyone else? Thats all I ever wanted. No special rights. No “agenda”. (which, by the way, I am still waiting for my copy of the agenda to come in the mail :slight_smile: ). My point is, people are going to be slower to accept people that dress like Judy Garland and have sex in public restrooms. The stereotypes stick in their mind. And if, by chance, they have a kid that is gay, maybe they will overreact because they are imagining the worst scenario and not the norm, which hopefully is many well-adjusted normal people who just happen to be attracted to the opposite sex.

I am really sorry if I have offended anyone. That is not my intention. I want everyone to ultimately be themselves. Sometimes I can’t help but question if the more flambouyant types are really being themselves though or if they have other issues.

I hope this made sense.

60

Okey-dokey.

By the phrase “just because I don’t flaunt it” I meant, specifically, “just because the casual observer cannot easily infer from comparing my mannerisms, behavior, or speech patterns to the common societal stereotype of the gay man that I am gay”.

Please feel free to insert that phrase in place of “just because I don’t flaunt it” in my posts in the future, if I should ever be so foolish as to use it again. It seems it distracts people from the actual content of my arguments, which I think is a shame.