I sometimes ask myself the same thing about the straitlaced types.
Then I think, nah, they’re being themselves - like I am.
Finally, drag itself isn’t supposed to help the cause. Drag is for fun. It’s a spectacle, a form of performing art, what have you. Drag queens, however, fought for your rights at Stonewall, though, so I feel inclined to show some respect for that.
Moving right along, I guess I don’t feel the need to pattern life or celebration according to the dictates of P.R.
Homophobes are already trying to have their opinions run my life. Why should I let them?
What you are speaking of is a stereotype.
So… if someone asks you, do you deny that you are gay?
Do you stay silent when others discuss the women(in the case of men) or men(in the case of women) that they are attracted to?
Do you watch carefully what you say in an effort to mask who you are to avoid disapproval or dismissal? If so, has it become so automatic that you do it in other facets of your life?
Do you attempt to heterosexize your life? By that, I mean not having any art, books, magazines, or any possession that might give the slightest hint that you are gay?
Further… do you keep your work life and home life so seperated, that your work friends/co-workers don’t know your gay friends? Do you have gay friends?
Does your family know? Do your friends?
The reason I bring these questions up, is that I have known many in the past who used the “flaunt it” term. What they meant amounted to what I have asked you.
You should have been on Larry King Live last night when they were debating Queer As Folk.
Now… superficial is bad, IMHO.
Promiscuous. Not necessarily a bad thing. For some people, it as valid and fulfilling a life as monogamy. Just as some people do monogamy for bad reasons, some people do promiscuity for bad reasons.
There are far too many hang-ups in our North American culture whoere sexuality is concerned.
To be “flamboyant” is considered bad, and representative within the gay culture of an Uber bottom.
What the hell is being flamboyant to begin with?
I’ve heard VERY straight laced people(gay and straight) tell me that I am flamboyant.
Everyone else sees me as a bit more subdued, veering toward the middle of the road, with an element of whimsical fun.
WHY should anyone care to begin with?
If someone is flamboyant, or a drag queen, are you really that afraid that it reflects on you?
I could use the same yardstick to claim umbrage at the imbeciles of the 1990’s that were to be the “voice of my generation.”
Just because other people think it is so, does not mean you have to take it into your identity and feel bad about yourself.
I wish everyone, gay, straight, bi, trans, would just stop worrying about what the person next to them is doing(or who they are doing) and just deal with their own damn issues.
P.S.: I’m polyamorous, 6’4", built like a football player, and I AM an UBER BOTTOM!
You know, Hastur, what annoys me most about this much-rehashed discussion is that, in all its iterations, it never seems to come down to much more than two points of view:
The gay and lesbian people that believe in a confrontational attitude as the best route to social and legal equality.
The gay and lesbian people that believe that a less confrontational, more integrative approach is necessary for societal acceptance, which will be the best route to social and legal equality.
What strikes me is that both approaches have their place, and are equally valid, and equally necessary. Just as different people have different approaches, these approaches work in swaying different types of people. And yet, every time I wade into this discussion, it always degenerates into “I’m doing more good than you are, nyah.”
Both approaches are equally valid in my book.
The sort of divisiveness that comes from quibbling over terminology is the lodestone of the gay community. Acknowledging everyone’s contribution to the cause is the only way we’re going to make any progress.
Your questions are impertinent at best, and downright insulting if taken at face value. What you are speaking about is a sterotype: everyone that uses a particular phrase is a particular type of self-hating dishonest clandestine homosexual. Inferring from my use of a phrase that I am dishonest with my peers and my family, that I’m discriminatory and hateful, is appalling. You’ve managed to ignore the entire content of my previous post, and instead hang all sorts of imaginary sins on my because I dared to use a phrase that has negative connotations to you. I would very much like an apology.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MrVisible *
**You know, Hastur, what annoys me most about this much-rehashed discussion is that, in all its iterations, it never seems to come down to much more than two points of view:
The gay and lesbian people that believe in a confrontational attitude as the best route to social and legal equality.
The gay and lesbian people that believe that a less confrontational, more integrative approach is necessary for societal acceptance, which will be the best route to social and legal equality.
[quote]
I’m more middle of the road. I think being confrontational is useful at times. Others require a more sophisticated approach.
I’m not an Act-Up type, and yet I’m also not a Log Cabin person.
Um… to a point. The extremes on both sides often cause more problems than they solve, IMHO.
Pick one’s battles wisely is my way of looking at it.
One sterotype versus another. You seem to be missing my point.
I read your post a few times before I wrote my post.
You can see my qustions any way you desire. You chose not to answer, and instead criticized me for asking to begin with.
Um… I asked questions, and also gave the explanation of where I derived the questions from in my personal experience. You have chosen to see my post, which is undoubtably blunt, as an attack.
I am not going to apologize when there was no attack.
First of all, drag things? How direadful. They are drag queens, and once upon a time I thoght they were “bad” in terms of Queer freedom, but soon learned differently.
If you would only read earlier posts in this thread, or go a bloody Google search on what really happened at Stonewall,youu might just get it.
We can be as diverse as possible - and that’s someting I rejoice in - but there’s a common cause. I am not a drag queen. I am not a leather man. I am not a twink. I am not any of those “things.” I’m scott evil, and I represent no one but myself. However, as I’ve said before, I will never turn my back on other queers – l If I were to do so, that would mean I’d learned notiihng at all.
matt_mcl said
Huh? 
Um.
They’re not just Drag Queens, my dear scott. They’re Drag Kings, as well. And Drag Balls, and Drag Shows, and…and.
I think “Drag Things” as a phrase summed it up pretty well.
Or perhaps it was a slip - Miss Thing with Drag Queen.
What the hell would I know? I’m only a non-politicized, not-really-out-to-anybody-but-the-boards celibate bisexual anyway.
Hastur, if you’d read beyond the phrase that brought you to all those conclusions about me, you wouldn’t have had to ask half those questions; I already provided the answers.
As to the rest of your questions, I have no obligation to live up to your idea of what it takes to be a good homosexual. I live my life in my own way, and if you don’t like it, tough.
SisterCoyote: New Democrat.
merci, matt.
Um… no where did I say that you had to see or do things my way.
In fract, I was not concluding that you were doing anything I asked you questions about.
Perhaps my bluntness made you ignore the content.
Still, these are your issues and not mine. Perhaps you need to reread what I have said and rethink things.
Wow, I’m not even sure where to go with all of this…
I guess I’ll throw in my “Gay credentials” first 
I was the host of a weekly Gay radio show from 1980 to about 1985, and covered everything from Drag Queens to the fight for Gay rights in Ontario and Canada to an interview with the woman who started “Good Vibrations”, the Sex Toy/Dildo store in San Francisco, to the horrors of a “new” disease that was killing Gay men “in the big cities”, to interviews with a Gay porn star…
I participated in “kiss-ins” on the streets of Toronto, AIDS Action Now protests, and at all times wore a pink triangle or a button that said “Adam and Steve” with a picture of two stickmen holding hands…
I fought the Ontario Government to get the right to give my pension to my lover if I should die, and I took Air Canada to court to try to be able to give my Frequent Flyer Points to my lover if I died, and fought a public campaign with the CBC to air Public Service ads that mentioned condoms…
Geez, I was really “in your face”… lol
On the other hand, I worked with the Canadian and Ontario Governments to get funding to start the first AIDS organization in my area of Ontario… I lobbied federal politicians for access to AIDS drugs, was interviewed on TV and radio almost weekly, and worked with everyone from Girl Scouts to Hospice workers…
Of course I was about 20 then, and have mellowed a little over the next 20 years…
I’ve been with my lover for 14 years, and we have our little Bungalow in suburbia just like Mr. and Mrs. Public down the road, but ours has a rainbow flag…
I may not be the “radical” I used to be, but I’m always glad to see there’s a new generation of G/L/B/T’s out there continuing to fight for our rights and visibility…
SFCanadian
Thank you. A voice of reason.
And, IMO, anyone who refers to drag queens as “things” can go piss up a rope.
I have stated over and over again that this is a diverse community. That’s what’s so fantastic about it. As well, I have said many times that even though I might not agree with another gay guy’s politics, I will never turn my back on him, and I will never stop fighting so that both of us can one day enjoy the fundamental rights that are accorded to str8 people just for being born that way.
I’m not trying to force anyone who’s not “out there” to suddenly be “out there.” I support - and defend - your right to choose your own kind of gay lifestyle. But don’t get on my case if my choice is to be out, proud, and ready to take the punches as they come, because one day, you’ll benefit too.
Uh, I would like to apologize profusely for that. That was not an intended remark. I don’t look at any human as a “thing”. I can’t believe I didn’t catch that (kicks self many times). I was pretty doped up on Nyquil when I wrote that.
Sorry, everyone :o
Please don’t get me wrong either. I am certainly grateful to anyone who has sacrificed for my rights. I wasn’t trying to judge. Sometimes I just get frustrated by the in-your-face types because I think that for many in the straight world, that is all they take notice of, rather than see any diversity at all. That to me is somewhat unfair because I get lumped in with a group that I have nothing in common with other than a gender preference. They assume that I have 1000 sex partners, have compromised morals, and think about sex 24 hours a day. No wonder they don’t want me to be a scout leader. Unfortunately, I would make a great scout leader because I have worked with kids, teaching them music for the past 20 years, and really enjoy working with them. But I am deemed unacceptable without anyone really caring whether I have the skills required or not because they assume that I am going to try to recruit their kids into a lifestyle where they will be forced to listen to Liza, march in parades dressed like a giant dildo, and have circle jerks together. They are buying into a stereotype, sure, but IMHO, that stereotype is one of the main reasons some people will never consider us worthy of the rights that so many of you struggle so hard to achieve.
Tell you what. I’ll answer your questions, specifically and honestly, if you will summarize the post in which I made the unforgiveable faux pas of using the phrase “flaunt it”.
I feel a need to chime in here.
It’s awfully easy for people to draw lines and say who’s inside them and who’s shut out.
I’m on record here as having been happily married, as of today, to a wonderful woman who loves me and whom I love, for 27 years and two weeks, and counting. She knows virtually all of my sexuality, as I do virtually all of hers. Eleven years ago I fell in love with a young man 25 years younger than I am, who identified as totally straight and who married a neighbor girl two years later. I love him, I love her, and I love their children, one of whom, aged 5, shows incipient signs of being gay. We remain the closest of friends.
I’ve been outspoken both here, on another board (where nobody was willing to conduct the fight along with me except Homebrew and, up until recently, JayJay) for the understanding and acceptance of gay sexuality and its proper place in what I understand of God’s plan for the world, for equal rights for gay people, and for greater tolerance and acceptance among all people. Barb and I have a HRC [=] sticker prominently displayed on our bumper, the only individualization we have on our car except an American flag sticker in our rear window.
I despise the term “gay lifestyle” because it attempts to stereotype the great variety of gay people there are into one image that the religious Right can rant against. The only co-worker I’ve had who also posts here has a brother for whom every gay stereotype is totally invalid except the actual feeling of attraction to other men, and who posted a rant to that effect here something over a year ago.
I have never discussed my sexuality online nor do I ever intend to. I’ve spoken of whom I love and why, and the different meanings that term can be invested with, in quite candid terms. I was called on the carpet by someone I considered a friend not 36 hours ago for having the temerity to return a flirt with another guy in a Pit thread – something I merely considered as “having fun online.”
I had thought I was fighting alongside you folks for “greater tolerance and acceptance among all people.” I’m not sure now if that’s what’s going on. There’s a place for those of us who feel called to take public stands for what we feel is right. And there’s a place for people like Mr. Visible who make quieter, more subtle, but equally telling points about sexuality. Was Rosie O’Donnell evil for not making her sexuality public until she felt called to do so to stress a major issue? Was Jonathan Taylor Thomas evil for castigating people who attempted to “out” him when he was actually straight, and then turning around and taking roles that attempted to portray individual gay people in a manner that would lead people to accept them?
Stop drawing lines in the sand and demanding that people toe them. Try to love everyone as who they are, not what they would look like in the uniform you would try to force them into.
Well said, polycarp