Also, Minty, remember that’s the ultimate copout argument around here: “Oh, you’re partisan. Your arguments, cites, logic, and evidence are obviously worthless. Bye!”
The thing that cracks me up about it is how transparent it is. What audience are these guys playing to?
This blather about a fundamentally untestable point irks me. We don’t know how well Clinton or Gore would have handled the data pointing to 9/11. We don’t know foreign policy would have taken a different tact under a Democrat – after the beating they took in Kosovo, they probably were reluctant to be seen with their thumbs in too many pots. Remember the “winning” foreign policy strategy on which Bush campaigned? Get us out of sticky situations, overwhelming force, clear exit strategies, no nation building.
So, yeah, anti-terrorism was a big deal to Clinton. It presumably would have been so for Gore. But the amount that he would have been able to mobilize on it would have been largely dependent on Congress and yes, on public opinion. Even though Bush “doesn’t look at polls” I can guarantee you he is not pursuing policies which alienate him from the voters. All pols do the same, and Gore would have had to move on those.
So this debate is just partisan masturbation. What we can look at is what did happen. Can we take a nonpartisan look at our policy, decision, and intelligence pre-9/11 and decide if indeed it was preventable? This is ultimately necessary in order to illuminate missteps (whether Clinton’s, Bush’s, Tenet’s, Congress’s, or Jim the Subway Sandwich Artist’s) and prevent future misstakes. All that understanding history so we don’t repeat it stuff. And here is where both sides should be angry. And to some extent, both sides are. Bush has sat on a lot of pre-9/11 intelligence, refusing to release it to Congress. The Congressional investigation (which would be Republican dominated) has not gotten off of the ground.
I don’t like to usually cite sites like these, but the quotes seem well documented, complete and surprisingly non-biased.
I’m not necessarily saying Bush or any of his legion is to blame. But we will never know until there is an investigation. This stonewalling is now perhaps the ugliest legacy Bush will leave the country – the idea that any information (even the attendees of a meetings with Cheney made to determine our energy policy) can be deemed vital to national security and classified nearly indefinitely. It significantly weakens one of the main strengths of our government – transparency – and may open the door to future corruption, cronyism, misbehavior, and most of all, the repetition of tragic mistakes.
That’s an interesting excerpt Tee. You know, the usual courtesy is to supply links. Allow me to demonstrate…
http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/001887.php
has several such excerpts. It would appear that, in your haste to smite the PL’s, you trimmed a bit. In its entirety, it becomes clear that Mr. Franken is making fun of the notion of being chosen by God. As some misguided souls have posited regarding GeeDubya. (It would certainly explain the sudden conversion of 10,000 Palm Beach Jews to Buchanan’s candidacy. But I digress…)
This sort of thing is called “self-deprecating” humor. Clearly, Mr. Franken does not seriously pretend that he is chosen by God to write this book. He is mocking such self-glorifying pretension.
It is, of course, possible that this is an entirely honest mistake. Or that it is a rather clumsy attempt to shade the narrative in a different light than was intended by the author. That decision I leave to the Gentle Reader.
Of course, this bit of whimsey has no bearing whatsoever on the substantive allegations Mr. Franken makes, and the factual reliability thereof. Again, I insist that I make no judgement thereof, despite milroyj’s assertion than his meager array of talents include mind-reading. (Despite what I say I’m thinking, he knows what I’m really thinking. Why he is wasting his time here when he could be winning the World Series of Poker eludes me. Perhaps it is only my mind that he has direct access to…)
It seems simple enough, yet it turns out to be like explaining quantum mechanics to my dog. Mr. Franken has made certain specific allegations, with specific facts and documentation. You may dislike Mr. Franken, and, 'struth, he gets on my nerves a bit as well.
But if you are to call him a PL, and, more importantly, claim to have proven some point thereby, you should be willing to prove it. He has certainly made it easy for you, and Stoid went to the effort to outline them for you. If, after all this assistance, you cannot prove him false, your case is weak. Surely this is obvioius to the meanest intelligence? And if all you can do is stamp your little foot and swear he is a liar, but will not make the merest effort to prove it, your allegations are nothing more than posturing drivel.
Now, if you wish to say “I don’t like Al Franken, and I distrust his motives, but am too lazy and/or too stupid to prove it” you’ll get no argument from me for this bracing display of candor.
The lies and bullshit from Scylla just don’t stop.
You’ve just been presented evidence that “sitting on our ass until somebody turns Cincinatti into a cinder” is exactly what Bush’s policy was pre-9/11.
And what did the post-9/11 “doing something” involve? Mostly show. A half-assed campaign in Afganistan, and now Iraq. Where’s Osama? WTF did Saddam have to do with 9/11? Where’re the WMD’s? Why has “doing something” seemed to have increased terrorism? Why do you think that’s a sensible result?
I was perfectly correct when I predicted you’d be spouting the Administration’s latest bullshit come November, wasn’t I?
I’d written a rather longish post explaining why I wanted to thank people such as elucidator, Mr Svilensha, Elvis1, minty green, Diogenes, stoid and rjung, but apparently it became hamster fuel.
Inspiration being what it is, and my memory not being what it was, suffice it to say that it is people like you that are largely responsible for my falling in love with your country over three decades ago. May your favorite deity – IPU included of course – continue to give you the same resolve and unity of purpose you have all shown so far. Because the day Americans voices such as yours become scarce, or worse, extinct, is the day that that love affair comes to an end.
Sad to say it is already on very shaky grounds – and again, if I haven’t yet filed for divorce, it is because of people like you and the very things you have so eloquently and passionately spoken of throughout this thread. Keep beating them with the Truth Stick. And if you ever think it’s not worth it, that no one listens, allow me to suggest you go back and read the first couple of pages in this thread to gather your strenght. Not all Americans that genuinely and naively bought into The Big Lie are members of The Bush Apologetic Brigade.
That said, you’re all doing a splendid job. Even this middle-aged cynic needs a shot of hope now and again. Like on days when you read than seven of your own countrymen fell prey to this madness. Like today for instance.
For giving me one, and then some…I thank you all.
You are a PL! It is impossible for you to be "perfectly"correct, since perfection is impossible. Hence, at least part of your statement is incorrect, it is therefore proven beyond question that all of your statement is a lie! Plus the one you are just about to make! Don’t deny you were about to make a statement, we know what you’re thinking!
And furthermore, it isn’t the “latest bullshit”! It is precisely the same bullshit…excuse, shining examples of truth…that has been spouted…errrr, that is “publicly released”…for months! PL! PL!
(You know, this is kinda easy once you get the hang of it…)
Por nada, hermano. Venceremos! No Pasaran!
You’re onto me elucidator. Waah! I want my mommy! 
“Nothing like 9/11 happened on Clinton’s watch.”
Implied necessary premise to the argument: because the first truck bomb in the WTC was either not big enough or in the wrong place. Dumb luck saves the Arkansas superman – again.
{{{{{RedFury}}}}}
Awwwwww…
And all this time I thought I was just a contrary asshole. Thanks for your kind words, Red. I will do my best to continue to piss in Bush’s cornflakes.
Yep, dumb luck. As opposed to dumb policy. I’ll take the former over the latter any day, thank you.
(Just an aside. This thread currently has 552 posts, making it the second longest Pit thread ever. The longest one, His4Ever, JerseyDiamond and Joe_Cool are hypocrites, has 561. So this thread’ll very soon overtake it, and become the longest. And just as a general observation, Pit threads this long are often followed soon after by the demise (as posters) of either the Pittor or the Pittee.)
luc, I’m making the large assumption that the right wing Evangelicals would be the ones who think Bush was chosen by God. Do you know, though, that he’s actually in trouble with these guys over simply saying that he thinks Christians and Moslems worship the same God?
link: http://www.japantimes.com/cgi-bin/geted.pl5?ed20031130a1.htm
So you see, Bush is actually a reasonable centrist. No shit.
I swear, you simply can’t make this stuff up. Nobody would believe you.
No, it’s the chimp himself who thinks he’s been chosen by God:
Not going to comment, as much would depend on the context in which he made said remark. One hopes it was only the emotion of the moment.
I’m going to bed now. Good thing I have a coupla Johnnie Walkers and some cabernet to smooth my way to slumberland…
Franken is being accused of selective perception and adverse selection which invalidate the conclusions he infers.
Elucidator, an authority on a book he hasn’t read, rebutting arguments that haven’t been made. Portrait of a man in his zone.
And you are being accused of hand waving, and a complete and utter inability to refute fact.
Wanker.
I agree.
So have you read any of Coulter’s books, or just Franken’s?
I’ve read one of Coulter’s and two of Franken’s. You?
**
Hand waving?
Ooooooo. I guess I’m in trouble.
Sad. I know. It’s why I’ll never make a good Democrat.