There’s a virtue that i run into on a fairly regular basis that always comes to baffle me on closer analysis.
What the heck is virtuous about innocence?
I have a kid, so I’ve been forced to really think about this first hand. She’s also been witness to divorces, tragedies, and a lot of other real life issues. There’s this cultural meme that’s pretty popular that kids are innocent and need to be protected from certain information. I agree in principle. Kids are sponges, and base their norms off of what they are exposed to. If you show them almost anything in a neutral light they will come to regard it as normal or at least as acceptable.
So, if you want them to fit in culturally you have to epose them to things that are “within the rails” of acceptable behaviour in society. I get that… the problem I have is obviously not with those boundaries, but with the glorification of this type of information starving behaviour under the guise of defending innocence.
As far as I can tell innocence is just another word for ignorance that is used by people with an agenda that is served by the fear of information. I think truth is by and large, with a few exceptions, very useful to children, even if it is momentarily uncomfortable for them to learn new facts. Growth comes from those moments, for instance, when a child learns about the finality of death.
I firmly believe that children should know every word that might get them in trouble if they say it at school… and that they should know WHY it will get them in trouble.
I could go on, but here’s my point… isn’t innocence just a positive spin on ignorance?
I never got it either, and TV shows that talk about the wonder of childhood and how something precious is forever lost when growing up get on my nerves.
Fuck innocence. Innocence is something to get through as early as possible.
The worst examples of this are the movies where some powerful, intelligent person has something happen which makes him stupid, and we learn that life is much better and happier in this state. It’s a fairly common meme.
Or where one of the characters is stupid in the first place, and we learn that such a person is charming. Sorry, smart does not equal lovable, but stupid doesn’t equal lovable, either.
I wholeheartedly agrees - ignorance isn’t something to be cherished.
But (you knew there was a but coming, right ?) I also remember the time when I still held some important, yet ultimately ignorant and basically wrong on all counts notions. When I knew for hard fact that friends don’t betray you. That loved ones don’t manipulate you. Love is forever. Every man is a good man deep down. People are more likely to be trustworthy than not. Life is beautiful. Everyone is born equal. You’re in control of your life. There are just wars.
Are any of those notions true ? Of course not. How could I ever think otherwise ? :smack::smack::smack:
Are any of those notions a good thing to believe in ? FUCK NO ! In fact, believing in them proved a major liability time and again, got me hurt in all kinds of ways. And I’m sure I’ve still got a lot of naive conceptions I’ll tear down before the show’s over.
But even so, the more rational, disillusioned and at times cynical current me can never let go of an annoying truth : I was a really happier person when I still believed in the lies.
I feel sorry for him/her.
The general idea is that the world is a pretty shitty place so why not protect children from the shittiness as long as reasonably possible? Is there any particular benefit to turning a small child as bitter and jaded as any of the full-grown disfunctional adults on the SDMB? They have their entire lives to learn how shitty life can be.
And if you are that bitter about life, I feel sorry for you as well.
Usually in those films (Regarding Henry comes to mind), the protagonist was a royal self-absorbed jerk. What typically happens is that all the stuff that seemed so important to them is taken away and they are left with nothing but the love of their family who they have been neglecting (and presumably crushing medical bill with no job or health insurance to repay them).
How long is that? Till they’re 5? 10? 18? Are you supposed to keep children ignorant of the shitty stuff until it happens to them? And do what then?
Life is full of shit and strange stuff. Recognizing that doesn’t take a lot of cynicism or bitterness. Children are not going to explode if you give them some information on how to deal with it - they already know life is full of shit and strangeness. You sound like you’ve never been 5.
It comes from a formation meaning ‘harmless’, and I think that’s carried on into the modern meaning of the word. If you’re ignorant and mean and nasty, folks aren’t going to call you innocent. I’d guess that some folks require an addition of +cute and/or +weak before they’d use the word innocent.
I tend to think of innocence as the opposite of ‘jaded’ and not the synonym of ‘ignorance’. It’s a purity of spirit and emotion, not a lack of knowledge or awareness.
I think innocence encompasses both, but that purity of spirit and emotion are the positive side of it. I have taught kindergarten-aged children, and I absolutely love the way they are so free to express what they’re really thinking and feeling. That internal censor adults have is just not there; they’re much more honest. Also, their lack of knowledge causes them to make all sorts of stupid connections, but some of those stupid connections are really cool/creative/funny/insightful, and are things that adults would have a hard time making. I wish I could come up with an example, but being a silly adult, my memory has a hard time storing those weird connections.
Insofar as their innocence gives rise to honesty and weird, offbeat perspectives, I’d say that it is something to value.
I think there is a an attitude in some parents that sheltering kids from the ugly side of life is protecting them. That may be the type of “innocence” that is being scorned here. I think in normal development kids will experience some negative stuff and I don’t think it’s always helpful to candy coat it.
The thing is, children are pretty powerless, compared to adults. It makes sense to me to protect children, as much as possible, from knowing about, or at least from experiencing, the crap and evil in the world until they’re old enough and powerful enough to be able to do something about it.
What causes cynicism and bitterness, IMHO, is (1) knowing that the world is full of shit and evil while feeling powerless to avoid it or defend against it or do anything about it, and (2) being well aware of the shit and evil and corruption in the world without also knowing about the goodness and virtue in the world.
I think it has to do with letting someone know about things out of sequence, presenting them with moral conundrums before they have the tools to parse them.
Innocence and Ignorance are not synonymous. Innocence is what state you are in before you had a chance to know better. Ignorance with the root word ‘ignore’ means that you should know better but don’t due to choices you’ve made in this life.
If you are innocent, you are not at fault for being innocent. If you are ignorant, you are certainly at fault and are responsible for not knowing what you should know.
