Asmo: Please explain. Did you misread me? I am not accepting the “sin all you want, then accept JC, and all is OK, BUT, if you don’t accept JC,: burn in hell” theology.
The idea of babies in hell because they were not baptised disturbs me.
I have never advocated forcing anyone to believe in any God or Way. How could that be meaningful? Torquemada torturing people until they “believe” is a prime example.
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Just to set the record straight, Torquemada and the spanish inquisition were political tools of the Spanish government who desired religious unity as a means to national unity. Hence the expulsion of the Moors and the Jews.
To their Credit, contemporary Popes were alarmed by the excesses of the Spanish Inquisition, and attempted unsuccessfully to moderate them. I think there was a Papal Bull forbidding forceable conversion.
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Perked Ears indicate curiosity - Know Your Cat
Sure it would. The two references to the ‘sins of Sodom’ from the KJV are:
Nothing specific to homosexuality. “Strange flesh” could mean same-sex, but it could also mean ‘flesh strange to them,’ i.e. strangers, which jibes with the original Sodom story, or it could mean going against what is natural for them. Since homosexuality is natural for homosexuals…
OTTO: the specific sins of Sodom are vague, but have something to do w/ sex, clearly. It is unclear, whether or not what we now call’sodomy" was one of them. Maybe, but it is not certain. Later Biblical writers SEEM to use use the word ‘sodomy’ in its modern context, but we don’t know for sure. So, it would not be an “incorrect intreprtation”, but not nessesarily a right one, either. I thought I made myself clear on that.
However, I believe we are somewhat hijacking this nice mans thread. We have other fish to fry here.
Hey, don’t forget about the holy dude attempting to coerce child prostitution of his own daughters onto the crowd.
So if infants and children under 8 go straight to heaven, why is abortion wrong? Gives 'em a chance to go straight to heaven without getting old enough to be tempted into sin, the way I sees it.
So, Jenk, when God said “Thou shalt not murder” and “Thou shalt not steal”, God was lying? Murdering and stealing are OK, as long as you believe in Jesus?
There was this gang of Inquisitors, see, who thought that murdering non-believers (or people whom they classified as non-believers) was OK. If the non-believer accepted Jesus while being tortured or burned alive, then he went to heaven and salvation. If he didn’t, well, he was a non-believer, so what the hell (pun.) These Inquisitors believed fervently in Jesus, as they killed thousands of Jews (in Spain) and tens of thousands of native Americans (in the New World) to the glory of Jesus.
And that’s just the murder part, we’ll ignore the fact that the murderers robbed the families of their victims of all their material possessions… after all, all that gold was used for the glory of Jesus, wasn’t it? …except for the part that lined the pockets of the murderers.
So you think those Inquisitors will be sitting at Jesus’ right hand in heaven?
(FOOTNOTE: Yes, I know the difference between Conquistadors and Inquisitors, I’m just trying to get to the main point without muddying the waters with historic detail.)
I think thats best explained by the servant going out parable. Where he goes out and invites whoever will come to a wedding. However theres one man who isint wearing proper atire and gets thrown out.
Jenkinsfan said:
He loves you so much that he’ll throw you into a pit of fire to torture you for eternity if you don’t bow down to him. That’s how much he loves you.
Incidentally, if you have said that children are not sinners, then your original statement that “everyone is a sinner” was wrong. Which is it? (Just want to check.)
I’m not very good at typing in between quotes so if this is hard to read, I apologize.
No, accepting Christ is a choice and He loves you enought to allow you to reject Him.
*I do believe that the human race is a fallen race and has been since the Garden of Eden. If the children you’re talking about are humans, then they’re sinners. However, God is a fair God. In the destruction of Sodom God removed the righteous before the rest were destroyed, and Lot even preached repentance to the crowd before judgement came. You see, He gives everyone a chance. I believe that God allows anyone into Heaven who isn’t capable of accepting Him, because to not do so isn’t fair.
ETERNITY: SMOKING OR NON SMOKING?
Itchy the flea-filled beagle hound.
Well Jenkins I am glad YOU believe the God lets everyone into Heaven who is incapable of believing in him, as to do otherwise"isn’t fair", but I am afraid you will be unable to back that one up with any scripture. See, the Catholic church has been pondering that point for well over 1000 years now, and all their “ace” theologians can come up with is: unbaptised babies go to Hell (but one of the nicer parts w/ no actual punishment".
I really hate to be mean w/ you, but I guess that means God isn’t fair…
Or it means the Catholics have it wrong.
Er, um. God is giving me a CHOICE between accepting him and burning in hell? Because he loves me?
How nice. I’m warming up to him already.
Only a small number of people are truly awake. These people go through life in a state of constant amazement.
Jenkinsfan said:
Is that what you call it? He “allows” us to reject Him – and then tortures us for all eternity. That’s how he “allows” this?
Sure! Just like Hitler “allowed” the Jews to exist – by torturing and murdering them. Just like Saddam Hussein “allows” people to publicly disagree with him – if they don’t mind a public execution. Etc.
The “God” you describe is no better than a petty dictator.
So, through no fault of their own, children are born into this world as sinners. Yeah, sounds perfectly fair to me.
Why? Is it because of anything they have done? If not, how can you call them the sinners? If they have not sinned, how can they be sinners?
Tengu, thanks, it appears there IS no solid answer as to what happens to unbaptised babies. I was taking this from older texts, and Inferno. A strict reading of scripture does say that if you do not accept JC as your savior you go to Hell. period. But, apparently, there is perhaps some weasle wording that postulates an “unspoken” acceptance on the part of innocent infants. The actual words of JC himself (instead of Paul) teach a lot of tolerance & forgiveness, so if we are going by the “SPIRIT” of the Word, I guess the kids get a free pass of some sort.
However, those who believe in the literal interpretation of every word–“babies rot in hell…”
Beaker & otto: I still can’t find any solid def of “sodomy” as opposed to the 'sins of sodom". I did find several sections condemning homsexuality, listed in a concordance under “sodomy”, if that helps.
After reading through this thread, I feel the need to reply to some of the statements made and clear up some confusion. If I misquote someone, or take a quote out of context, let me know. I apologize in advance for the length. Please note that any verses I quote come from the KJV and that any doctrine mentioned comes from an independent, fundamental Baptist church.
**quote:
1)Everyone is a sinner.
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23 **
We know that everyone is a sinner, because we cannot help but be sinners. You are correct in saying that sin is inevitable and that it is impossible not to sin. The reason we should feel guilty about our sin is that God is holy and hates sin. We should try to live the best that we can and when we sin, ask him to forgive us, which he is faithful and just to do.
**quote:
2)Everyone owes a debt for their sin.
For the wages of sin is death; Romans 6:23A **
We owe a sin debt because God is holy and cannot abide sin in his presence. It is true that it is our nature to sin and that we will continue to sin until the day we die. However, we need to realize that God cannot accept us into his kingdom as sinners. This is why he sent Christ to earth, to pay our sin debt for us on the cross. When we accept Christ as our personal savior, his blood covers our sin so that God cannot see it.
quote:
3)Everyone’s sin debt has been paid.
…but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23B
Everyone’s sin has been paid for. Everyone has the free gift of eternal life waiting for them, but it’s up to them to accept it.
quote:
4)Everyone can be saved.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9
Everyone can be saved by believing in God and Jesus Christ. He is the only way to get to Heaven. The belief must come from the heart. A head knowledge of salvation is not sufficient.
quote:
Aceptance of Jesus Christ as your personal sacrifice and Savior, is all that is necessary for an eternal redemption.
The four steps laid out above by jenkinsfan are all that is required for salvation. However, the Catholic church to my knowledge does not practice this. There is never a set time where they realize that their sins have been paid for by Jesus and ask Him to become their personal savior. They feel their sins are paid for by confession to a priest, and penance done for their sins. They are trying to pay for their own sins themselves. This is not Biblical. If I have misrepresented the Catholic faith, I apologize and would appreciate correction.
As far as I know, their acceptance of salvation is not the same as ours. The God that they worship is not the God of the Bible. They believe that God was once a man who attained godhood, and that through works on earth, we can attain that level of godhood. Not only must Jesus Christ be accepted as a personal savior, but the calling of Joseph Smith must be accepted. If I have misrepresented the Mormon faith, I apologize and would appreciate correction.
After you are saved, you do not have to read the Bible if you don’t want to. If your salvation is genuine, though, you will find yourself drawn closer to God and you will want to learn more about Him and His teachings.
II Timothy 3:16 says “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”
The Decalogue still applies to daily Christian life. They are rules given by God that we should follow. Will we follow them all the time, even after we have received salvation? No. However, we should strive to keep sin from our lives and to ask forgiveness of God when we do sin.
They are used in witnessing because Christians are trying to explain only the essentials that you need to receive Christ as your personal savior. When you are witnessing to someone, you do not have the time to explain to them every tenet of the Christian faith. The main goal is to win souls to Christ.
I think the religious right are hot on the ten commandments right now because they feel that since “prayer was taken out of schools” that our schools have become worse and worse. They feel that introducing an aspect of Christianity back into schools, the schools will become better. Is this logic sound? I have mixed feelings.
[quote]
If all I need
That’s not homosexuality, it’s rape, and you’re old enough and smart enough to know the difference. I hope.
TWIN: I am going to refute you, and by Scripture: You quote Matt5:18 to show the Bibles accuracy, and that the Law is still with us. But not these words “…'til all be fufilled”. Peter and Paul state that the ALL being fufilled is Christ Death & Ressurection, thus the old Jewish Law no longer applies to Christians. I assume you no longer follow the Laws of Leviticus, because of this “pass” that JC gave us. This “pass” of JC being our “new” Covenant is why the !) Commandments no longer is Law for Christians (I assume you do have Sunday instaed of Sabbath Lord’s Day? There is probably a statue of JC in your Church, or if not a branch of your Church?).
Next, show me where it says Homosexuality is a sin, and use the New Testament please. (New Covenant).
Last, you quote Rom 10:9, and it says if you accept JC, you get to go to heaven. But, Paul goes on to say that ONLY thru JC can you get into Heaven, otherwise go to Hell. Thus babies “rot in Hell”. Explain THAT, please.