The Gospel according to the Bible.

Great Debates
61

This makes no sense. God created a bunch of people for whom sin is COMPLETELY UNAVOIDABLE, and yet he is holy and hates sin? How is that believable? How does that make him anything more than a divine sadist?

  1. What is the use of “owing a debt” for something we have no power to affect.
  2. More importantly, how does the whole Christ story make any sense? God hates sin, so he takes on a mortal body, kills it and then declares everything to be fine and dandy as long as you believe the story?

Everyone’s Ferrari has been paid for, but it’s up to them to find and marry the rich person who bought it. You’ve taken a “free gift” and attached a bunch of strings so that it’s hardly “free” anymore.

So if the belief must come from the heart and I don’t have belief in my heart, then I CANNOT BE SAVED! I can’t fake belief, you cannot convince me, the Holy Spirt hasn’t come calling, and yet I don’t believe. There is no way for me to get this “eternal gift” you insist is waiting for me.

My point, however, is that those verses are not at all compelling. It’s like me going up to you and insisting you owe me a dollar because your hair is red. If I wanted to “witness” to someone, I would say “look at how these people are at peace… it’s because they’ve made a connection with God”, or “Look around you… we know who made all this”, or “You may feel really sad about the bad things you’ve done, but there’s someone who loves you anyway and is willing to forgive you.”

I wouldn’t say “You are a sinner. You have always been a sinner. You will always be a sinner. God hates sin, and in order to avoid roasting in the flaming pits of Hell for eternity, you must swear that you believe in the divinity of a guy you’ve never met who lived 2000 years ago. As an added bonus, you must try to understand how believing in God’s short stint as a mortal lets you off the hook for killing your sister, while non-Christian saints are going to fry despite their wonderful deeds.”

Don’t you understand that the latter uses fear and guilt as a weapon against the vulnerable. Most non-Christians are going to find that whole concept preposterous. Those who don’t are likely to be depressed, masochistic, or otherwise unstable to begin with.

Even within Christianity, I don’t think people are getting this right. Jesus may have said “nobody comes to the Father, except through me”, but that’s not incredibly specific. Maybe he just recognized how pitiful a lot of folks are and is willing to cut them a break if they admit their shortcomings. Of course, that doesn’t mean he’s not there letting in a bunch of good non-Christians as well. “Through me” could mean “in my example” or “with my permission” or any number of other things.

All in all, I have to laugh every time I hear people droning on about how they’re going to Heaven and Gandhi’s not. How incredibly conceited and rash. The truth is, you’re not guarding the Pearly Gates, so why feel the need to speculate on who’s getting in?

Again, this makes no sense. If God is omnipotent, why did he create a bunch of people who couldn’t avoid sin? Don’t try to tell me that God didn’t create sin, cause the buck stops there. If it wasn’t in his power to allow us the possibility of sinless life, then he’s not really all-powerful, is he?

We keep returning to this. Even if Jesus was God, and even if he died on the cross, what does that have to do with anything? How does dying on a cross qualify as a sacrifice if he knew that he was divine and would be living forever in paradise. Furthermore, even if it was a sacrifice, why would killing the innocent save the sinners? Moreover, if Jesus was God, then doesn’t that whole argument about God not tolerating sin fly right out the window.

None of this is at all consistent or compelling.

So why exactly did this “perfect” God create such vile sinning people?

Sorry if this whole post was a bit harsh, but such is the response to “witnessing”. If someone is going to

62

Ok, so God creates us sinners, doomed to eternal Hell. Nice guy. But he wants to cut us some slack. Instead of just saying, “Well, I’ll let the mostly good people in, or well, maybe just everybody,” He has to go through some elaborate rigamarole with having a virgin give birth to His Son and send His Son get nailed to a cross first, and the best human who doesn’t believe this will suffer horribly, and the worst human who does will have eternal bliss. Does this sound like an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God to you? You say that He had to sacrifice His Son because He loved us, but He’s God, He could let anyone into heaven or not, as He pleases. Do you think that God is powerless to let people into heaven or not as He wishes?

You say that sinners who believe are covered with the blood of Jesus Christ, and therefore are allowed in God’s sight, but who exactly do you think you are fooling? Not God; if He can’t abide sin, He can’t abide sin, and if He can abide sin if you believe Jesus dies for your sins, why couldn’t He abide sin for any other arbitrary belief of His choice? He made the rules, and He could just as easily have proclaimed that all people who believe the sky is blue get into heaven. Having God decide that He can’t abide sin, unless He makes His Son die for you and you believe it, seems an exceedingly queer thing for an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God to do.

Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that She is pink; logically, we know She is invisible because we can’t see Her.

63

Dear Moderator,
You seem to be upset that you can’t figure out God’s motives…Well, would it make you feel better to have a god that we could figure out. Imagine us being able of explaining everything supernatural in life-Oops! Forgot about evolution! We do know everything.

ETERNITY: SMOKING OR NON SMOKING?

Itchy the flea-filled beagle hound.

64

Well, I at least think your God should not seem so downright illogical and cruel. A person can say all he/she wants that he/she is the nicest and smartest person ever, but if he/she does not act in a manner that seems to support that, don’t expect me to be especially impressed.

You cannot really offer reasons why God does a thing (“Jesus had to die for our sins! We are all sinners and deserve eternal torment!”) and then retreat behind “God has mysterious ways” when we question the reasons you give. If you admit that your reasoning doesn’t make sense, then simply say you have faith in God and stop using faulty reasons to convince those who don’t; that’s just fine with me. If you think your reasoning does make sense, then defend it.

65

One possible defense, of course, could be that the Christian god is not omnipotent. He may just be the local warden who has phenomenal cosmic power (and itty bitty living space?), but is subject to the rules of some higher entity who will not allow minor creations into the god-plane unless their sponsoring deity jumps through all sorts of hoops.

Otherwise, in accordance with local dimensional ordinances, they’re tossed into the incinerator with all the other dead trash. :stuck_out_tongue:

66

Actually, I believe the LDS Christian God is not omnipotent, and good and evil predate Him. He is simply the most powerful being in the universe.

67

Actually, Guadere, we believe that there are entities which do good things and entities which do evil thinks, not that there is an entity “Good” and an entity “Evil.” Another thing we don’t believe is that our deity, or any other for that matter, created Time. So in that respect, our deity isn’t omnipotent, I guess.

68

Is not creating Time your God’s only limit? I got the impression that, although He was the most powerful being in the universe, His powers were still a little bit more limited than simply not creating time.

69

quote:
The men of Sodom were not wanting to sit down and have a chat with the men in Lot’s house about the weather. They were going to have sex with them. This is homosexuality, which is a sin.

I knew that I was going to be picked apart for that the second after I posted it. The men in Sodom wanted to have sex with the men in Lot’s house. Let’s see…men wanting to have sex with other men…there’s a word for that…I think it’s homosexuality. Were they going to rape them? Probably. Does this make them heterosexual? No.

[quote]
I am going to refute you, and by Scripture: You quote Matt5:18 to show the Bibles accuracy, and that the Law is still with us. But not these words “…'til all be fufilled”. Peter and Paul state that the ALL being fufilled is Christ Death & Ressurection, thus the old Jewish Law no longer applies to Christians.

[QUOTE]

The old Jewish laws of sacrificing animals no longer apply, yes. However, there is some useful doctrine contained in the OT that is useful.

The pass you refer to is the covenant man had with God. That covenant involved animal sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin. Yes that covenant is now null and void. We don’t have to sacrifice animals anymore. As far as a statue of Jesus? No, not to my knowledge. Sounds like an idol to me.

Here you go:

ROM 1:26 “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature”

ROM 1:27 “And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”

I thought I mentioned the age of accountability. I still haven’t found the verses though. Please give me some time.

**
quote:
We know that everyone is a sinner, because we cannot help but be sinners. You are correct in saying that sin is inevitable and that it is impossible not to sin. The reason we should feel guilty about our sin is that God is holy and hates sin. We should try to live the best that we can and when we sin, ask him to forgive us, which he is faithful and just to do.**

No. God created two people and gave them a paradise to live in. The only condition he put upon their paradise was forbidding them to eat of the fruit of one of the trees in the garden. Long story short, they messed up and brought a curse upon themselves and their offspring.

**
quote:
We owe a sin debt because God is holy and cannot abide sin in his presence. It is true that it is our nature to sin and that we will continue to sin until the day we die. However, we need to realize that God cannot accept us into his kingdom as sinners. This is why he sent Christ to earth, to pay our sin debt for us on the cross. When we accept Christ as our personal savior, his blood covers our sin so that God cannot see it.**

But we do have power to affect it. We can recognize our sin and ask for forgiveness. It is really very, very simple.

It makes sense in the fact that a curse was on the entire human race. Only God giving his son to die in our place could wash away the sins of the entire world. You don’t only have to “believe” the story as in, you understand and comprehend it. You have to realize that you are a sinner, and Jesus died for you, personally.

**
quote:
Everyone’s sin has been paid for. Everyone has the free gift of eternal life waiting for them, but it’s up to them to accept it. **

I find this metaphor extremely confusing. It is free in the fact that you don’t have to do anything but accept it.

**
quote:
Everyone can be saved by believing in God and Jesus Christ. He is the only way to get to Heaven. The belief must come from the heart. A head knowledge of salvation is not sufficient.**

It sounds like you are choosing not to believe, especially with statements such as “you cannot convince me”. You are right, I can’t force you to believe.

**
quote:
They are used in witnessing because Christians are trying to explain only the essentials that you need to receive Christ as your personal savior. When you are witnessing to someone, you do not have the time to explain to them every tenet of the Christian faith. The main goal is to win souls to Christ.**

[quote]
My point, however, is that those verses are not at all compelling. It’s like me going up to you and insisting you owe me a dollar because your hair is red. If I wanted to “witness” to someone, I would say “look at how these people are at peace… it’s because they’ve made a connection with God”, or “Look around you… we know who made all this”, or “You may feel really sad about the bad things you’ve done, but there’s someone who loves you anyway and is willing to forgive you.”

I wouldn’t say “You are a sinner. You have always been a sinner. You will always be a sinner. God hates sin, and in order to avoid roasting in the flaming pits of Hell for eternity, you must swear that you believe in the divinity of a guy you’ve never met who lived 2000 years ago. As an added bonus, you must try to understand how believing in God’s short stint as a mortal lets you off the hook for killing your sister, while non-Christian saints are going to fry despite their wonderful deeds.”

Don’t you understand that the latter uses fear and guilt as a weapon against the vulnerable. Most non-Christians are going to find that whole concept preposterous. Those who don’t are likely to be depresse

70

Why not? I can accept that “omnipotent” can mean “can do anything logically possible” but I see no reason why it is logically impossible for people to be near God if they are sinners, but it is somehow logically possible if they believe a certain thing.

You forget, God made the rule. He made the rule that blood must be shed for sin. It’s not something He had to be bound by, it’s something He chose: “I’m going to make it so that if anyone sins, it won’t be gone without the shedding of blood.” Why shouldn’t He choose: “I’m going to make it so that if anyone sins, it won’t be gone unless they give money to the poor.” It makes as much sense, and just think of the pigeons, lambs and goats who would have been saved, let alone Jesus Himself!

71

PLDENNISON:I doubt that you,as a Christian follow most of the Laws in Leviticus. Do you have a beard (you must), do you cut it?(you can’t) Do you eat pork? Do you ever eat with gentiles? Do you eat only Kosher food? Any tatoos? Observe Sabbath on Sunday? (Saturday is the Sabbath) But, here’s the one you havn’t been folowing, for sure(Lev 19:17) “thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in no wise rebuke thy nieghbor”.

But you bring up Romans 1:26-27., written by Paul. Yes that does seem to slam homosexuals, but it finishes "and recieving in themselves that RECOMPENCE of their error which was meet. Most biblical scholars believe Paul is talking about Gay prostitutes here. However, Paul also goes on, here, to attack (ROM1:29/30)“fornication, wickedness,covetousness, full of envy, nurder, DEBATE, deciet,maligninity, whisperers,/ backbiters,haters of God, DESPITEFUL, PROUD, BOASTERS, inventors of evil things,…” (caps are mine). You are debating here, aren’t you? In Acts Peter & Paul agree on a few thing which are no-noes: eating non-kosher meat is one of them. Ever eat meat from a non-Kosher butcher? Do you keep doing it even tho it’s sinful?

In 1Cor6, Paul goes on the slam fornicators & abusers of self. Also (ICor6;10)“drunkards” are classed with fornicators & “effeminates”. Does this mean alcholics are going to hell?

But he topper is, in 1Cor7, Paul says ALL sex is bad, even between man & wife. woopsie! I do not mind following the words of JC, they are full of forgiveness, lack of condemation, & mercy. Paul was a sexist prude. If everyone had followed his advice, the human race would be eliminated by AD170.

72

Okay, I know I’m really going to regret throwing this into the mix, but…

In the Virginia Statute, it states that a child’s status (slave or not) depends SOLELY upon the status of the mother. This sounds suprisingly familiar to Jenkin’s description of Genesis, and how we, Adam and Eve’s offspring, are forever punished for their folly. Hmm…

Amanda

73

Twin,

I think we have a few fundamental misunderstandings here.

Can I ask you the following:

Do you believe that God is omnipotent --that there is nothing in this universe that is outside of his control?

Do you believe that God is omniscient – that he is aware of everything that transpires in the universe?

Do you believe that God is omnibenevolent – i.e. completely good?

74

Jenkinsfan said:

Dear member, I have a name.

Not at all. I would first have to believe in your little petty dictator before I could try to figure out his motives.

It would be better if you believed in something that at least made a little bit of sense. But I guess that’s asking too much.

What a silly thing to say. Nobody here has claimed to know everything, and I can’t imagine what you “think” evolution has to do with anything. But apparently that’s the best response you could put together after I pointed out the problems in your beliefs and in your claim about God “allowing” us to reject him. I shouldn’t have expected more, I guess… (Truth be told, I didn’t.)

75

Dammit, I have got to keep my sockpuppets straight. Look, “David B” is answering for “Gaudere”! ::g, d & r:: :smiley:

76

Just wanted to clear something up:

Twin said:

I said:

Twin replied:

Great logic, there. :rolleyes:

Has it occured to you that I don’t believe because nothing inside me says to me “this is true”? We don’t choose our beliefs consciously – they happen (based on our brain’s internal logic).

Saying that I have “chosen not to believe” is suggesting that I really DO believe, but am denying it – i.e. I am a liar.

77

Gaudere said:

Hmmm. After I posted that, I wondered if he might have been talking to you. I presumed it was me, but since he couldn’t be bothered to address more than “Moderator,” I figure it’s his tough luck if the wrong one replies. :slight_smile:

78

[Whew, hopefully they’ll buy that explanation…]

79

**
He isn’t going to let everybody in because he is HOLY. He cannot abide any sin at all. As happy-happy as the notion of everybody going to heaven sounds, it is not possible for a holy God to allow this.
**

When “they believe that certain thing”, the blood of Jesus Christ covers their sin. In God’s eyes, we are no longer sinners.

**
No, it can’t be just an arbitrary belief. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. Blood washes sins away. The perfect, sinless, holy blood of Jesus Christ washed the sins of the entire world away.**

He didn’t make it something arbitrary like giving money to the poor, because then, poor people could not be saved. Or children, who are dependent on their parents for money. What if they couldn’t give to the poor? I guess they have to go to hell, too. God made His way of salvation so that everyone could receive it.

Based on what? It seems to me he is talking about the act of homosexuality.

Yes, we are debating. But I believe the debate that Paul mentions here is stirring up contentions with fellow believers.

Wha? Where is this?

Consumption of alcohol is considered a sin. God does not measure sin by degree. Sin is sin in his eyes. Drinking alcohol is just as bad as murder. It’s all sin. Also if you’ll read the next verse (I Cor6:11), you will see that God will forgive those sins when confessed.

He doesn’t say that all sex is bad. In I Corinthians 7 he is explaining that God has established marriage to be a union between two believers. He is warning believers not to rush into marriage lightly, or the wife might consider the husband to be more important than God and the husband may consider the wife more important than God. He is warning believers that with marriage comes trouble. In I Cor 7:28 he says "But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.

Yes.

Yes.

Not only that, but he is completely holy.

**Twin said:

quote:
Everyone can be saved by believing in God and Jesus Christ. He is the only way to get to Heaven. The belief must come from the heart. A head knowledge of salvation is not sufficient.

I said:

quote:
So if the belief must come from the heart and I don’t have belief in my heart, then I CANNOT BE SAVED! I can’t fake belief, you cannot convince me, the Holy Spirt hasn’t come calling, and yet I don’t believe. There is no way for me to get this “eternal gift” you insist is waiting for me.

Twin replied:

quote:
It sounds like you are choosing not to believe, especially with statements such as “you cannot convince me”. You are right, I can’t force you to believe.**

I think that nothing inside you says that this is true because you have not taken the time nor the effort to understand it. This is just my opinion. If you seek God, he will reveal Himself to you. Have you honestly tried to make a genuine attempt to seek God? I am not asserting that you really do believe and are denying it. I am asserting that you have not really tried to believe.

80

You can assert anything you like, but why should anybody try to believe? And none of this pie-in-the-sky stuff about heaven and hell. We’ve heard that all before. Is there any other reason, besides your claim that believers go to heaven and the rest of us, no matter how good we are, rot in hell?