The Green Party

Great Debates
1

takes deep breath
It’s really only in the last couple years I grew out of my 20-something apathy/cynicism and bittnerness. Well, ok, that’s not quite true, I’m probably more cynical and bitter, but I’m definitely less apathetic, at least where our government is concerned. To that end, I’ve resolved to learn more about what I feel so strongly about these days.

Now, I’m fully willing to admit, that my political beliefs may very well not actually be a viable alternative as Government policy or World policy, because of simple human nature. They don’t even really mesh with my thick coating of sarcasm, cynicism, and disgust for “society” in alot of what I see in the world around me today. However, I’ve decided it’s more important to me personally stand for what I see as our ideal, than what may or may not be possible in this country (or any other, for that matter).
Ultimately my political philosophy is more of a human one than a specific political stance (or maybe not…bear with me, I’m still learning :wink: ), and it’s much the same rule this board has.

Don’t be a jerk. I believe in my daily life that people in general should be decent to each other and try to get along, and those who cannot, or refuse to, should be removed from society for the greater common good. Try and help your fellow man, and every one should do their part to be a decent citizen of not only this country, but of the human race in general. (I know, not much to ask for :stuck_out_tongue: )

To that end, I wanted to know where I stand as far as our Presidential candidates stand, since I’m new to this actually-wanting-to-vote thing. So, I went looking for a Presidential Candidate Selector I’d remembered seeing a version of last election. (link is at POLITICAL SELECTORS Quizzes Tests Decision Makers Select Selector Quiz Test for anyone who might be interested).

Lo and behold, I came out 66% Green Party Candidate. Interesting.

But, like I said, I am fully willing to admit my political stance may not be a viable or feasible one in the long or short term for this country. (It would obviously take government restructuring on a grand scale to achieve, at least in my opinion).

I’d like to hear some of your thoughts on the matter. Could the Green Party’s platform work, here in the real world, in this country as a viable and feasible ideal? Please look beyond the current two-party, winner-take-all system we currently seem to possess. In this thread I’d like to keep it to the topic of feasibility as a stance in general, not the current realistic possibility, or lack thereof, of a Green Party candidate actually winning a Presidential election.

In other words, if a Green Party Candidate actually did win, (in theory) follow the party’s stated platform, and managed to implement said policy in our government without obstruction (yeah, right chuckle), would it be ultimately doomed to failure? Or would we find our society and way of life bettered as a nation? Or somewhere in-between?

2

Okay, leaving aside the near-impossibility of your scneario, I’ve read over the Green Party’s program from their site, and it seems to have something for everyone- to hate, that is. It goes against virtually every tenet of condervatism, and though its goals seem very liberal, the means by which they are to be accomplished border on fascism (no, I don’t mean Naziism, but this is bad enough).

It seems to be a perfect foil for Libertarian thought- and I have to reject its viability on the same grounds. It’s a ‘pure’ ideology that leaves no room for objection or dissent with its stated goals, no room for compramise, and so I give it a big thumbs down.

3

Sorry, forgot to run the spell check. Once again, in English this time:

Okay, leaving aside the near-impossibility of your scenario, I’ve read over the Green Party’s program from their site, and it seems to have something for everyone- to hate, that is. It goes against virtually every tenet of conservatism, and though its goals seem very liberal, the means by which they are to be accomplished border on fascism (no, I don’t mean Nazism, but this is bad enough).

It seems to be a perfect foil for Libertarian thought- and I have to reject its viability on the same grounds. It’s a ‘pure’ ideology that leaves no room for objection or dissent with its stated goals, no room for compromise, and so I give it a big thumbs down.

4

[ObDisclosure: I voted Nader/Laduke in '96 and '00]

I’m reminded of the SNL skit before the 2000 election, which featured State of the Union addresses in the future from GWB, Gore, and Nader. I don’t recall Gore’s, GWB’s was an anarchy-in-the-USA kinda one, and Nader started with him talking about achieving 100% literacy and peace and so and and so forth. About halfway through a pig with wings flies by. After that two people dressed in devil outfits get in a snowball fight. It ends with Satan saying “Hi Ralph” and Nader saying “Hi Satan”. Killed me.

It’s hard to say what would happen. I can tell you that the most recent GP candidate for MN governor (Ken Pentel) was woefully unprepared for his debates and other things, but was a nice guy with a seemingly good platform. He got killed. (Don’t even get me started on their most recent run for Senate)

Sorry to stray. As to your quoted question, it’s rather moot. Living in Minnesota from '98 to '02 with a third party governor, I can tell you that you’ll see bipartisan unity to kill anything that an outsider really wants. The two major parties (at least on a national level) are corrupt through and through and are really only interested in staying in power and feasting on pork. Sure, they’ll bicker with each other, but it’s all for show and they crave the guaranteed stability of power that a two party system offers.

5

Found it!

The skits in question

A quick quote from the GWB one:

President George W. Bush: Really? Oh, man! I told you, this is hard! Okay, listen… I’m just gonna get this Address thing over with. As we assess the State of the American Union today, we have reason to hope, because… [ takes out a map which shows California and Florida as islands, Texas in Communist Mexico, and the Great Lakes on fire ] Holy crap! When did all this happen?! Wow… the Great Lakes are on fire - even I know that’s not good. [ laughs ] Okay, America, we got a lot of problems. I ain’t gonna lie to you. But with the help of Vice-President Dick Cheney…

Voice of Advisor: You killed him in a hunting accident!

George W. Bush: Okay, fine! Not a problem. 'Cause I’ve been working hard, I got a plan that’s gonna solve all of it - from the deficit, to foreign relations, to that hole in the sun. Two words, America: Ostrich Meat.

Gore is quizzing America with the use of Economics textbooks and Clinton is hanging around, shirtless, complaining about being out of beer.

Possibly the last time that I laughed at an SNL skit. :slight_smile:

6

If I thought the Greens would be able to implement their program, I would certainly never vote for them.

I vote for them in order to try to pull the Democratic Party to the left. When a certain number of people vote Green, the Democrats (or perhaps the Republicans) will simply adopt some key portions of the Green platform and co-opt them.

So a Green will never win, but some of the less creepy portions in the Green platform well might.

7

Well, as far as your first point, with all due respect, pretty much every party has something for everyone to hate, so I don’t think that’s an incredibly strong argument against it.

As far as your second point, as far as I’m aware, the Green Party heavily supports Instant Runoff Voting (Proportional Representation http://greennature.com/article959.html which would seem to define compromise, as far as wanting to be politically moral and consistent with the wish for true representation of the people’s choice of government that the Green Party seeks.

Doesn’t that pretty much mean they don’t think their ideal should be the only say in our government, unless that is the unanimous will of the people? Or am I missing something?

8

Because of the winner-take-all nature of the US electoral process, the Greens (or any 3rd party) really have only two viable strategies:

  1. Focus on local elections and try to build from there. Demonstrate success, and hope for a national paradigm shift.

  2. Work within one of the existing two parties and offer your constituency as a significant (even if small) voting block.

#1 is a long shot and will take tremendous patience. #2 implies compromise (sometimes significant compromise) which is often hard, if not impossible, for the idealogically pure.

So take your pick. Neither scenario is all that appealing. As a libertarian-leaning voter myself, I go for option #2. It’s not a lot of fun. There did seem to be a noticible (though slight) shift towards libertarian thinking by the Pubs in the 80s/90s, but not so much anymore. Especially at the national level, big spending Conservatism seems to be the trend.

9

The ideals of the Greens are exemplified by our Ten Key Values: 1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY 2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY 3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM 4. NON-VIOLENCE 5. DECENTRALIZATION 6. COMMUNITY-BASED ECONOMICS AND ECONOMIC JUSTICE 7. FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY 8. RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY 9. PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY 10. FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY. Obviously these are not the values of fascists. In fact, while there are portions of America who feel we already have too much respect for women and cultural minorities who is not in favor of popular politics, fairness, living naturally, safety, local control, good jobs, responsibility, and planning ahead? Most of our values lead to policies in the interest of almost everyone except the monied interests who run this country. If we came to power and implemented such policies there is no reason to believe that the sky would fall though there is no shortage of corporate shills whose job it is to convince people otherwise. It would be a government that was actually for the people. You know, like we are supposed to have? Of course, the trick is maintaining those values after you gain power. The Dems were once a popular party.

As for our chances of long term success, William Greider is no babe in the woods and he believes the Democratic Party is vulnerable because it isn’t connected to real people. It’s connected to the Beltway crowd: lawyer/lobbyists, think tanks, corporate doners and the like but it’s only connects to the the general populace through unions which grow weaker every year. The ubiquitous political organizations that used to tie politicians to their constituents are almost gone. Those who call themselves “Democrats” are mostly of the kind I used to be. People who have registered in that party and voted for them but never gone to a rally or given money or interacted with the party in any other way. Lacking structures of their own on the ground they can’t effectively resist when we Greens come in to organize communities. ( I say “we” though so far I am mostly the same kind of Green as I was a Dem. I haven’t actually canvassed a neighborhood since my youthful days with Clean Water Action. ) It seems to me that if we continue to do our work then either the Dems will have to either begin to confront us or just fade into irrelevance. The Republicans also suffer from a weak party organization and thus are vulnerable but have less internal inconsistancy because they aren’t pretending to be the party of the people.

10

There is a third option: Directly attack the winner-take-all system. See the “Proportional Representation/Instant Runoff Voting” thread, also started recently by Cerri:

And the website of the Center for Voting and Democracy:

The problem is publicity. The big obstacle to IRV and PR in this country isn’t that the people are against these reforms, but that most people have never heard of them, and explaining takes more words than you can fit on a bumper sticker. If IRV and PR ever become popular issues the way term limits were a popular issue in 1994, they will not fade from the public agenda thereafter, the way term limits did, because every third party and every dissident faction of the major parties will have a common interest in keeping them alive.

Therefore, every Green – and every Libertarian, Socialist, America Firster, etc., etc. – should make a point of talking up IRV and PR, every time he or she has a chance to address an audience. Get the ideas out there, and eventually the Dems and Reps will have to come back and argue why they’re not good ideas – which will only help them become better known.