To our Green allies: if your brain dead, can we harvest your organs?

Got a couple of problems, right away. Is this a debate thread, or a rant? GD or Pit? This I will dispose of by Humbly Beseeching our Mods to etc. etc.

Secondly, how to put this? There is very little in the Green agenda that doesn’t meet my political standards (I’m on the conservative wing of the extreme left). Indeed, in a better world, I might not find myself trapped in the dilemma of supporting Green and voting Democrat. It is, of course, just exactly that better world we are trying to create.

Nor, indeed, can the entire blame of the Debacle of 2000 be lain at their door: a candidate with all the charisma and warmth of a two-by-four, a SCOTA willing to bend over backwards and bite their heels, and, of course, the unexpected political clout wielded by the Jews for Buchanan: these were all factors. Nonetheless, when push came to shove, when beseeched and implored to be realistic and practical, the Greens practiced Kamikaze Politics. With a result that we all live with. Every stinkin’ day for years yet to come.

So, to get to the question: Are you guys totally fucking brain dead, and, if so, can we harvest your organs?

What does it take for Darth Nader and Co. to catch on?

Just for an instance: I currently reside in the People’s Republic of Minnesota. (Yeah. Nice. Elected a wrestler Governor. All true. It’s a Very White Thing, you wouldn’t understand.)

The Pubbies are pouring money onto their Anointed, in a feverish attempt to oust the most Liberal politician since LaFollette. Their candidate is personable, more or less, centrist, more or less, and heavily funded, more and more and more. The race, according to the latest, is neck and neck. Best guess is its going to be a squeeker, with control of the Senate (possibly) depending upon it.

And so the Greens field a candidate. Seems a good enough fellow, but that’s not the point. He cannot win. I know that. You know that. Anybody who thinks otherwise has bong water for brains.

The only practical political effect is to ensure the victory of the Forces of Darkness.

What the hell is the matter with you people! What is your major malfunction? Does tofu, as I’ve oft suspected, actually rot brain cells?

Confronted by a brick wall of political obstinance, you remove your helmet and goat-butt. Wall stands, you bleed, and two years later you decide to do it again! Inconceivable! Mind boggling tantrum politics! Did you inherit your handbook on “How to Affect the Center” from the SDS? Pinky and the Brain on your Steering Committee?

I swear, you guys screw this up again and I will sell a kidney to buy an SUV, drive to CalOregon, chop down a redwood to fashion a harpoon to stick into the nearest available whale. A gay one, should the occasion present itself.

Either cut eyeholes next to your navel or pull your head OUT!

Yeah, but you can’t just throw your newly made harpoon at the whale. You have to strap it to the side of your new SUV and ram a whale that has managed to beach itself.

Jeeze. Don’t they teach you leftist-pinko treehuggers anything?!

–==the sax man==–

make sure it’s a free range redwood

:smiley:

Wasn’t Ventura a guy who “cannot win”?

Couple of things, Tars.

Minnesota, for better or worse, was largely founded by Scandanavian emigres with a deep suspicion of centralized political power. As a result, the Office of Governor is invested with the power to declare exactly which week shall be set aside to celebrate Spam, and which lutefisk (don’t ask). Beyond that, his political power is “D” for diddly-squat.

His election set off political ripples felt all the way from Brainerd to St. Cloud.

He presented himself truthfully, as a straight-ahead, no-nonsence kind of guy with neither patience or skills for political skullduggery. He ran for the office of Queen of the Whores on the Virgin ticket. And won.

Sure. It happens. Cubs might win the World Series.

Care to bet the future of the Republic on that?

Before you bitch about Ventura, live in texas a while.

Genius. Bravo!

Of all the things I’ve ever heard the Green Party accused of, tactical brilliance–indeed, intelligence–is not one of them.

Born and raised, companero. Little town called Waco. You never heard of it, nothing ever happens there.

Flymaster, is that you?:wink:

Hey, if there is NO chance of them winning, why not vote Demo then?
vanilla, who lives in Ohio and is Not to blame for the election results…

I’d just like to point out that the Green party is accomplishing something. They’re giving the Democrats a disincentive for going too far to the right. Over the last decade or two, the Democrats have been trying to pick up more and more conservative votes, on the assumption that they didn’t have to worry about alienating their liberal constituents. After all, what were they going to do, vote Republican?

If former Democrats feel the party no longer represents them, and they are better served making their dissatisfaction known by voting Green, that’s sort of what democracy is, really. Having a true liberal party in power in the future is more important to some than winning elections right now. That’s the choice they’re making.

Rather than whining about the Greens, perhaps the Democratic party could take steps to become a semi-liberal party again and win them back into the fold? (I’ll never understand why Democrats are more angry with Greens for voting for Nader than with Republicans for voting for Bush…)

'cause we don’t expect anything from them

Elucidator, is “the most Liberal politician since LaFollette” you speak of Paul Wellstone? If it is, I can’t think of a reason why the Minnesota Greens would find him objectionable. Can you tell me why?

Dear NDP:

1st question, yes. That may be somewhat hyperbolic, but the Pubbies are making a major effort to cook his goose. Anybody Jesse Helms hates must be doing something right.

2nd question: they’re brain-dead (see above). Tofu damage. God only knows what rationale they might offer for the most politically savvy and deft manuever since Jane Fonda got on the plane for Hanoi.

Is it Disraeli? Something about “I can deal with my enemies, Dear God! protect me from my allies”?

This kind of shit isn’t shooting yerself in the foot, its standing on the hand grenade and pulling the pin with yer big toe.

I concur. Leave it to the liberals to rip each other’s throats out over who’s “lefter-than-thou.”

BTW, I don’t know a lot about its state politics but doesn’t Minnesota (like New York with the Liberal and Conservative parties) allow smaller political parties that are more ideologically or single-issue based the option of fielding their own candidate or endorsing someone from the big two? I seem to recall that up until the early 1980’s, the Farm-Labor party was an influencial liberal force in Minnesota state politics that usually endorsed Democrats like Hubert Humphrey or Walter Mondale for the Senate rather than running their own candidate. If that’s still the case where you are, you’d think the Greens would have taken a page on coalition building from the old Democrat-Farm-Labor handbook.

Is this a complete sentence about the Green allies’ brain dead? If your brain dead do what can we harvest your organs?

If your brain dead vote can we harvest your organs?
If your brain dead roll over and play dead can we harvest your organs?
If your brain dead blow Buchanan can we harvest your organs?
If your brain dead come back to haunt us can we harvest your organs?

Or was the brain dead thing one of those double entendres of self reference?

Couldn’t resist.

::d&R::

P.S. I agree with the OP :slight_smile:

Okay, Greens: you ran your candidate and you proved your point. I think. What was that point, anyhow? Oh, yes. Corporations are running and ruining this country, and if we don’t take a stand now, we’ll pay the price later. Or maybe your point was that you’d get national funding if you got more than 5% of the popular vote.

Well, that sure went well. Bush II is president and you got less than 5% of the popular vote. Corporate puppet and Christian right cheerleader George W. Bush is president, and the Greens are still derided by the right as ineffectual and limp-wristed, and are now resented by moderates and liberals as spoilers. What do you have to show for it? The Bush Restoration. Wonderful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah… we Americans have the right to vote for anyone we want, and the two major parties are basically the same, right? Hardly. Anyone who thinks that Al Gore would have governed like Bush Junior ought to be smacked upside the head with a copy of Earth in the Balance. Or an Enron ethics manual. Or both. I voted for Gore, though I was a big Bradley supporter during the primaries. Any moderate or liberal who didn’t quiver at the thought of another Bush administration obviously didn’t read much campaign literature.

Okay, I’m sorry. I’ll calm down. But I do have some serious problems with the Green argument. I’ll break 'em down into bite-sized pieces, because I have a feeling that this is going to be long, and the length of this post has probably already cost me a number of readers.
Moving the Democrats to the left

As a registered Democrat and as an American, I’d really like to see the Democrats move to the left, myself. But this is such a nebulous goal! Think about it. If your party is based on reforming another party, then what’s the point in having a party at all? This is a pointless plank. If you want to move the Democrats to the left, become a Democrat. Otherwise, just leave. Furthermore: you chastise the Democrats for having moved too far to the right, but what I want to know is: how will you know when the Democrats have moved far enough leftward? This is not a clear goal, and defeats the purpose of the existence of the Green Party.
Getting certain political issues brought to the fore

I have to say I’d really like it if the President of the United States were opposed to the death penalty. This is an issue I have long felt strongly about, and would really like to see this barbaric, medieval practice abolished. That said, I have to accept that it’s not reasonable to expect an anti-death-penalty president to ascent to the Oval Office. Currently there are 39 states where the death penalty is legal, nine where it is not, and two where there is currently a moratorium on it. Even though a number of states where the death penalty is on the books don’t use it very often, there’s still a clear mandate from the American people that this should be permitted. Simplistically, you could say that both George W. Bush and Albert A. Gore supported the death penalty, which is true. However, Gore didn’t have as much enthusiasm for it, which made him a much more attractive candidate to me. Likewise, Gore was pro-life but far less zealous about it than Bush II, and it’s a fair bet that President Gore would have been kinder to pro-choice legislation.

The battle for these issues will not be won on a grand scale, but in increments. You need to elect the candidate whose presence in the White House will make it more comfortable for your agenda to advance, and while Gore is a conservative, he was certainly more liberal-friendly than the man the Supreme Court finally appointed. Remember: we death penalty opponents are in the minority in the United States.

Well, so what? If you’re right, you’re right! Right!?! Um… kinda. See, the way I look at it is this: if you want to change the system, you’ve got to affect change from inside the system. Which leads me to my next point…
Trickle-down reform does not work

(Disclaimer: trickle-down reform does not usually work.) And what is trickle-down reform? It’s how I refer to the belief that all change must start at the top and reach people that way. I’ve heard it remarked before that it’s too bad the Americans never had a monarch. I’ve reflected on this for years and I’ve finally realized that this really is too bad. We Americans crave monarchs, of sorts. We have this peculiar belief that the president somehow controls the entire government, and that powerful offices are the only ones worth striving for. Of course, I’m not speaking for all Americans, but this is the tendency.

It’s true! How many of you voted in the 2002 midterm primaries, or plan to vote? How many of you vote in off-year elections? How many of you know who your Representative is? Your Senators? Granted, it’s more likely that Straight Dope regulars do know who their Congressional delegates are, but the fact is, these elections aren’t viewed as terribly important much of the time. Off-year elections tend to see lower turnout, since there’s no president involved. This is a real travesty, since this is where third parties can make a real difference.

Consider the low turnout that your state senate might see, or your town council. Who’s voting? Who’s running? Republicans? Democrats? Yeah, probably. These are low-turnout campaigns, since more likely than not, people don’t pay attention to them. And this is where the Greens could make a difference. Think about it. A Green could easily run where there’s grass-roots support for the Greens and waltz right into a state office. California, Oregon, New York, Florida… all places where there’s enough Green grass roots (so to speak) to get voters to turn out. Furthermore, consider the ways Greens could make inroads into less-liberal territory. What if the Toxic Runoff Mining Company of Backwood, Idaho was ignoring the locals’ complaints about their legal yet unhealthy methods? And what if neither major-party candidate were taking a stand on this issue? A Green candidate could step in and run for office in the area, maybe for the state senate or county commissioner and really make a difference in a place where Greens would normally never even be considered? Furthermore, don’t you think a local resident active in government could make more of a difference for this small town than even a President Nader could?

America was founded on the principle that we should govern locally in spite of what the larger governing bodies felt. Wouldn’t it make more sense for someone who cares about making a difference to run for an unglamorous, local office instead of the glamorous, national ones?
America’s election system is horribly flawed

Of course I’m talking about the electoral college. I’m talking about other things, too, but we’ll start with the electoral college.

For review, the electoral college is an archaic system of seeking out 538 citizens who get to decide who the next president will be. Much of the way the electoral college works was decided by the Twelfth Amendment in 1804, but the fact is that the separate states are still free to choose their electors in different ways, and still do. Furthermore, it’s unlikely that an elector will break ranks and actually cast his or her vote for a candidate who belongs to a third party. This hasn’t happened since Nixon’s landslide in 1972, when one Virginia elector cast a vote for the Libertarian candidate (unless you count a renegade 1976 vote for Republican Ronald Reagan or a renegade 1988 vote for Democrat Lloyd Bentsen.) The electoral college has defied the will of the people in at least three presidential elections (arguably five) and has come frightfully close to doing so in at least four more. So what makes you think a third-party candidate has a realistic shot at winning any electoral votes? And what do you think that helping a candidate like Bush to exploit the system’s flaws would serve?

No third-party presidential candidate has won election since Abraham Lincoln. What allowed Lincoln to win in 1860 was a strong, national support for particular ideas. While I don’t question Ralph Nader’s integrity, the fact is that support for Nader as president is regional, at best. Ralph Nader could have done more for his cause if he’d run for California state senate and became a monkey on Gray Davis’s back—or possibly a man of his prestige could have made it in to the House of Representatives, where he could have made a difference. Ralph Nader was loaded for squirrel and went hunting for bear. All he did was make the bear mad.

Scrapping the electoral college would be the best thing the United States could do for democracy. I’ve long supported direct election of the president, even before the “election” of 2000. I like the French system (despite its chilling outcome this year): vote for whoever you want, and then the two candidates with the most votes proceed to the runoff election. This system is also used in Brazil, and probably other places. It certainly does a lot to encourage other parties, and doesn’t dissuade voters from voting their conscience. I’ll admit that if this system were in place, I would have voted for Nader first and then for Gore, since I would have had no fear that my vote might allow Bush to glide in. I’m sure I’m not the only one. And I’m sure that would have sent a message to the Democrats. Honestly, I’d much rather feel confident that voting for the best candidate wouldn’t mean that I might wind up allowing the worst candidate to win.
Conclusion: think globally, vote locally

I believe in this strategy of grass-roots activism through local elections, and I know it will work. How do I know this? Because I didn’t think it up. This strategy was thought up by right-wing activists years ago, after Pat Robertson’s failed 1988 presidential campaign. Christian fundamentalists realized that their message was going to be mocked and ignored by mainstream America, so they set about getting their candidates elected to state offices, to school boards, to minor municipal offices. A friend of mine in Illinois tells me that there’s a candidate who’s running for her local school board advocating what’s called “Intelligent Design,” which is just a code word for “teach-the-kids-the-world-was-made-in-six-days-and-get-the-taxpayers-to-foot-the-bill.” This is bad news, folks, but it shows that this strategy works. Remember that fracas in Kansas a few years back about getting creationism green-lighted for public schools? Do you think that could have happened without a lot of conservatives and ultra-right-wing Christians in local offices? I know Kansas is a conservative state, but I really don’t think it’s as bad as that.

Local action, folks. Grass roots grow from below, not from the treetops. Reform seeps up; the status quo trickles down. Rome wasn’t built in a day. It didn’t fall in a day, either.

…I don’t see Surreal in this thread. Odd.

Well, aside from Wild West shoot-outs between the Feds and gun-happy cults.

For the record, I don’t live in Texas. :slight_smile:

Here are a couple links that illuminate the topic of this thread more clearly from The Nation and The New Republic.