The kids are alright - it's the adults that are confused

Great Debates
1

Inspired by the various gay muppet marriage threads.

I’m gay. I think gay people should be able to marry. I think kids can handle the concept of gay marriage. But at the same time, it’s something new, something slightly uncomfortable for some people, and something slightly political. And that creates a ginormous cauldron of potential awkwardness.

Even if you can sign off on same sex, it’s inevitable to imagine “and then?!” What if my kid asks me about Mormons or generic polyamory? Or incest or bestiality or fan fiction or whatever?

My premise is, the kids are alright. Whatever you tell them, age appropriate (meaning answer at the same level as the question), if you believe it, they will believe it.

I think the problem is, adults haven’t always figured out / decided these issues for themselves, and kids have the strongest bullshit meters in existence.

So: the problem isn’t “what about the children” but instead “can the adults figure it out for themselves before the kids catch on that they haven’t a clue?”

What y’all think 'bout them apples?

2

I think your OP is less that clear.
Is there a debate thesis in there somewhere? Or should I move this to IMHO or MPSIMS?

(You might try providing some context that is more explicit than a vague reference to “various gay muppet threads.” What argument do you perceive that you think you are refuting?)

3

This is definitely a debate. The referenced threads are about Bert and Ernie getting married. My thesis is: people are always worried about what kids can handle, but I think the real issue is: kids can handle any issue adults have figured out for themselves. The only time kids are in danger of confusion over controversial issues is if their authority figures are still ambivalent about it (or if they disagree).

So I think the answer is, if you can explain your values in a coherent way, do so. But if you have to resort to bullshitting, that’s a sign that you haven’t really thought it out fir yourself. If you are just repeating bullet points from your own authority figure, your kids will detect that and reject it. Better to admit that you don’t know.

4

IOW your kids will detect that and reject it. Better to admit that you don’t know, and advise them to think it out for themselves or have a real discussion about it.

5

I don’t think any kind of coherent argument is necessary to indoctrinate very young children with whatever. I think that the majority will take whatever it is that they’re spoonfed.

6

Problem is it’s a slippery slope. What will happen if we change the definition of marriage to include people of different races marrying?

7

So, the impetus for this thread are a few remarks beginning on the second page of the thread Do You Want Bert & Ernie To Get Married?. (I’m not going to go plucking out the individual posts.)

8

The impetus may have been the Bert and Ernie thread, but the implications for parenting go beyond it. And I agree. Whether it’s a question about gay marriage or where babies come from or what happens after you die…there’s going to be some question at some point that your kid asks that you’re not prepared for.

Some of these are easy to address by admitting you don’t know, but can find out. “Why is the sky blue?” “Well, I don’t know, actually. Something about light waves and bouncing of water molecules in the air, I think? Let’s google it and see what we can learn together.”

Some of these you can put off until later, or provide a very simple explanation for that’s not entirely correct. This came up recently when my daughter and I were reading “It’s NOT The Stork” and they referred to the umbilical cord as a “straw” where tiny bits of food went from the mommy’s body to the fetus’ body. “You know, that’s not quite right,” I told her, “but it’s an easy way for a 6 year old to think of it; we’ll talk more about it when you’re older.”

Some you can address with the “some people” and turn the question around on them model. “Some people think when you die then nothing else happens, but you don’t notice because you’re not you anymore. Some people think you’re reborn into another baby’s body and you get to live again. Some people think you go to a nice place called heaven where you live with the angels. I just don’t know what the real answer is. Sometimes I think one thing and sometimes I think another. What do you think right now?”

Sometimes, there is no formula that works. “When am I going to die, Mommy?” <----there’s an emotional landmine. “Not for years and years, when you’re a very old lady,” is a tempting answer, but it may not be true. “Any moment, kid, it’s possible, you just never know,” is probably more factually accurate, but who wants to say that to their kid?! Who wants to even *think *about that?

I agree, if you’re ambivalent, it’s really hard to give a simple answer, and kids can really sense that you’re hiding something, or that you’re anxious. And, like dogs in a pack, when kids sense that Mom or Dad is anxious, they get anxious, too. Best to admit your ambivalence - which also teaches kids that ambivalence is not bad, but it’s part of the process of growth and learning.

For me, the hardest question to answer on the gay marriage debate has been, “Why do some people think gay people shouldn’t get married?” Jesus, kid, I don’t know. I don’t understand it, either.

I agree with the OP that an age appropriate answer, which may include, “Sometimes I think one thing, and sometimes I think another thing,” or “I just don’t know,” or “I don’t really know how to explain it; let me think about it and we’ll talk about it tomorrow,” is best.

9

I agree with the OP 100%. It’s not the kids, but the parents who are the problem. “The problem” being the conversation between kids and parents about sex and sexuality. Just don’t throw too much at them at too young an age. Not saying it’s easy to know exactly what to say when, but part of being a parent is making a good effort at figuring that out.

10

I concur. The majority of kids will believe whatever they are taught usually without question. It is my firm belief that many kids do not question what they are taught, which is the problem. Kids are simply being taught how to reiterate what they are taught.

11

if you tell kids gay is OK ,they will become gay. I am not sure why, but the Republican/tea baggeres make that clear. If they ask about gay, you should do what Marcus Bachmann would do. Pray it away.
Not talking about gay will make it go away.

12

You are letting your partisan feeling influence your posts.
A significant (although not quantified) number of persons from the Religious Right probably hold the belief you expressed. Such persons are more likely to be Republican than Democrat, but they do not make up a majority of Republicans.
Similarly, only about half of Tea Partiers come from the Religious Right, (which makes up only a tiny (if loud) portion of the Republican base).

So while it might be fair (if somewhat exaggerated) to claim that the Religious Right believes that simply knowing about homosexuality will turn children gay, there is simply no validity to claim that “Republican/tea baggeres” [sic] hold that view.

13

A co-worker’s extended family was freaking out over the holidays last year because a gay family member was going to bring their longtime partner. As relayed to me, they were going “OMG what are we going to tell the children?!?”

I went :dubious:. I mean, if I was invited to the event with my now-husband, I would be introduced this way:

“This is purplehorseshoe and that’s The Other Shoe.”

I would NOT be introduced this way:

“This is The Other Shoe and he sticks his penis into purplehorseshoe’s vagina.”

So why is the gay couple any different? Why even bring up OMGgayanalsex to kids if you don’t bring up straight sex? (In the context of introducing people, I mean.)
I don’t see how Bert and Ernie are any different. Who ever talks about Big Bird’s sexuality? Nobody, that’s who. Because it doesn’t friggin’ matter. It’s a lil’ kid’s show; sexuality is not and should not be part of it.

14

I don’t think it’s logical to assume from your thesis that kids are “alright”. If they believe anything an adult they respect tells them, so long as they don’t get a sense that the adult is lying to them, how is that “alright”? There are plenty of anti-gay adults out there telling there children who knows what bullshit about God and sin and punishment and… and with total sincerity.

Parents, even reasonable ones, aren’t too pleased that there are other “respected” adults out there telling their kids things that contradict their own beliefs. Kids are certainly going to be confused, and some of them will never enough intellect or independence of mind to reject the crazier teachings of their most important role models…

Adults aren’t alright because they weren’t alright as children either.

15

Their presidential frontrunner is bragging about the family business that does exactly that. There are plenty of religious right who make that claim. that is why they cry about Spongebob and the Muppets.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6852828/ns/msnbc_tv-countdown_with_keith_olbermann/t/will-spongebob-make-you-gay/
Pat Dobson explaining it again. Spongebob will make kids gay.

16

I think you’ve almost turned kids into another species, and at that the superior one. The only difference between kids and adults is the adults have had more time to think about things. That’s why they should be given credence, and that’s why we have given them credence. Otherwise it would be like giving someone who had been at a certain job for one year more credence then someone whose been at it for ten.

Having said that, I also don’t really see the gay/anti-gay debate happening between the young and old. There are millions for both on either side. I think it just can sometimes masquerade as being a young/old debate because, as you have said, its a newer idea, and this then gets attributed to newer things; kids being the prime example. Though the very fact that its such a new idea is one of the greatest arguments, at least in my mind, that its a wrong idea. Of course there always has, and always will be people who desire sex with the same gender, but it has never been the social revolution it is now, and more accurately, in the US.

All this could be associated to the fact that America as a nation has socialized sex moreso then any nation or people ever before, as is seen in the billion dollar industries devoted to it; directly in the form of pornography, and indirectly in nearly every other form of media. With this comes the more and more eminent pressures to explore sexuality, and push boundaries the are naturally uncomfortable–namely, in our case, homosexuality. I’m realizing I have digressed here, but I figured I might as well, seeing as to how I would have had to eventually state these ideas if someone offered a rebuttal.

17

Totally irrelevant. I agree that elements of the Religious Right are that stupid.

You made a claim attributed to “Republican/tea baggeres” that only applies to a small minority of Republicans and fewer than half of Tea Partiers.

As to Bachmann being the “frontrunner,” you clearly never pay serious attention to politics. The Ames winner is not a “frontrunner,” merely someone that the news media will pump up until the next event. (Pat Robertson won in '87, then disappeared; John McCain came in tenth in '08.) Out of six such polls, only two winners have actually taken the Republican nomination and only one made it to the Presidency. It is all political grandstanding by a tiny number of people who fail to represent anything more than their own desires. Bachmann gets a hat trick for your claims, being a Republican Tea Partier and a member of the Religious Right, but she is not representative of the entirety of the Republican Party or even a majority of Tea Partiers.

18

I think it’s the “but won’t someone think of the chiiiiiiiildren?!” attitude that does that. Children aren’t some precious more-godly-than-adults species. They’re human beings who deserve straight (if simplified for their cognitive/experiential ability) answers to their questions, like all of us.

19

Straight answers? Do you mean “factually correct”, “emotionally honest”, “laced with uncertainty” (there are more questions I don’t know answers to than there are ones I do), or sexual orientation :stuck_out_tongue: ?

20

:stuck_out_tongue:

“I don’t know, but we’ll find out together,” is always a valid answer, whatever sexual orientation you or your child may have. :wink: