Children and their perception of gay people.

In My Humble Opinion
1

I was noodling around on the net last night while my 12 year old son who was with me for the weekend, was flipping through the cable channels. I looked up when he asked me “Dad look at that guy”.

I looked up and saw some some re-decorating type show with a slender, fairly good looking man advising a woman about color schemes in gently earnest and precise tones with a sweetly fey aura about him.

“He’s pretty gay isn’t he?”

In looking at the scene and mulling over an appropriate response I had to admiit that yes, even as gay friendly individual myself, my son’s gaydar was operating correctly and the man on TV was “pretty gay”.

I may not have chosen the best response, but I simply looked at my son tilted my head and cocked a knowing eyebrow. He looked at me and nodded. In retrospect I wonder if this really was the correct response.

My son is very sweet natured and does not have a malicious bone in his body, and reminds of myself as a child before I became the large and cynical man I am today. I have not had a specific discussion about gay people with him, but I get the vibe he thinks gay people are more “funny” than anything else, which is not exactly where I would want him to be, and I have the looming issue of what my now fundamentalist ex-wife is telling him re “God loves everyone, but gays are going to hell”. I have been actively trying to avoid broaching this issue because after several difficult years we have finally come to a cease fire position, and I do not want to re-instigate hostilities or get him in the middle of a culture war between his mother and myself. Cowardly on my part? Perhaps, but I have to decide what hills I am willing to die on and this issue is not where I have chosen to make my final stand.

Should I have launched into a “happy to be you and me” dialog? Was the arched eyebrow insulting in that I was tacitly sharing his satisfaction at the correct ID of the gay man?

How would other dopers approach this? Advice appreciated.

2

Based on my own memories of my childhood attitudes, and those of my peers at the time, we were a pretty homophobic lot. Maybe, twenty-odd years has made the children of today somewhat more enlightened, but I suspect kids do have an innocent prejudice against anybody different (we were pretty racist too, come to think of it). This is, hopefully, merely an extension of the conformity deal kids take so seriously, and most grow out of it.

It sounds like your son’s attitude isn’t actually too bad, all things considered. Seems he’s a smart kid who’d respond well to some plain talking about the subject.

3

Children do not have innate predjudices. They’re perfectly accepting of most things in life until someone they respect, look up to, or wish to emulate teaches them that a certain thing is “bad” or “gross.”

My little six year old cousin and I were once at a carnival. A gay friend and his boyfriend met with us, and chatted while they held hands. After we parted, my cousin asked why they were holding hands. “That’s his boyfriend,” I explained. “Oh!” she replied, and shrugged.

Probably, once she goes to school, she’ll learn the predjudices of her peers. It’s a shame.

** astro, ** your son is bound to look up to his father. If you make it clear without being “preachy” that you dissaprove of such an attitude, it will definately make an impression. I think the best way to respond to his statement of, “He’s pretty gay, isn’t he?” would have been to give him a blank look and say, “So?”

4

I don’t think your son’s attitude is harmful or hateful. However, it sounds like the only thing you two were basing your assumptions on were stereotypes. You might want to remind your son that people can step outside of strictly-defined cultural gender roles without being homosexual. Even if you were correct in this case, you won’t always be.

5

I’m not sure I agree with you, Lissa. Kids do seem to have at least some inborn prejudices. I don’t mean anything specific, of course, but a lot of kids seem to be somewhat frightened or at least apprehensive about things they’ve never seen before. I know several small children who will loudly question their parents in public places about people who look or act in a way they have not encountered before. Often there’s a note of disgust in their voice. For instance, one of my best friends has a 5-year-old son. We were at the mall one day and saw a group of three women dressed in saris, with bindis painted on their foreheads, and one had a red line painted in her part. (I think in some parts of India this indicates a woman’s married status- anyone know?) Anyway, the kid stares at the woman for a second, then turns to his mom and says VERY loudly, “Ew! Why does that lady have paint in her hair?” His poor mom was dying of embarassment. He’d never seen anyone like this before, his mother had certainly never said anything to him about it, and I seriously doubt his peer group was influencing him in this situation, but his immediate response was “Ew!”. Kids also love to mercilessly torment anyone who’s different, regardless of whether or not their parents or guardians have taught them to do so.

Anyway, astro your son seems pretty normal for his age. But “normal” does not mean “good” or “okay”. He is judging people based on stereotypes, and you mention that he seems to find homosexuality somehow amusing. This could very well get out-of-hand, especially if your ex-wife is a fundie. Next time he says something like that, I’d go with your second idea- just say “So?”. If he thinks it’s no big deal to you, hopefully he’ll learn it shouldn’t be one to him.

6

I’m not certain this identifies prejudices. I know what would have happened to me if my momma found out I put paint in my hair! I suspect, in mainstream America, most children who come home from school with paint in their hair get a good talking to on being neater and then are made to wash up. This could just have easily been 'Ewwww! Her momma’s gonna be mad at her!" -type of attitude.
and astro, I know what you mean about the fundie ex. Keep fighting the good fight (the wise fight). Children tend to begin to form their own opinions no matter how hard a parent forces theirs on them. I mean, just look at my pagan ass! My momma cries everyday! :wink:

FaerieBeth

7

I don’t mean to be combative, but how do you know the man on TV is gay? Because he’s a decorator or acts in an effeminate way? Or did they go into his sex habits right there on the show?

Now might be a great time to explain that everyone that acts like that is NOT gay and that whether he is or not isn’t really something to discuss. It’s none of your/you son’s beeswax.

(I have two close friends that are very stereotypically “gay” acting and both are straight. You never know)

8

Actually, is it possible that the fundamentalist ex-wife is not saying a thing about homosexuality? I could be mistaken, but it seems that when I was growing up fundie, homosexuality was a subject that you never, ever brought up around children. (Granted, things could be different now.) I don’t remember ever hearing about homosexuality in a religious setting before I was in college. Is your son hearing anything at all about homosexuality in a religious setting?

9

WHAT PERCEPTION OF GAY PEOPLE?

Children are innocent and have no concept of what it means to be homosexual, transexual, bisexual or heterosexual, not to mention celibate. They only perceive harm and cruelty in the absence of any fun or joy. Children love all of those around them and for every right reason.

10

Actually your question is quite fascinating as it touches on what sociological and behavioral cues people use to identify, characterize and/or stigmatize people as being this or that. I was on the net and wasn’t really paying attention to the show. My son was running the channels and after (IIRC) a few seconds of watching the man and the woman interact asked his question, and I don’t think my 12 year old is really aware of the common stereotype of male interior decorators being gay. I would imagine he saw a man behaving and speaking in a what he perceived to be a somewhat fey, non-masculine fashion and made the inferential connection that he was quite likely gay. Now for all we know the man may well have been as straight as an arrow sexually, but given his manner it probably was a fairly safe real world bet he was gay.

Obviously not all people fall into these assumptive behavioral categories and your point about stereotyping being a trap is a good one. At one time I would have bet a substantial sum of money Tony Randall was gay, and now with his marriage and two kids conceived after age 70 he is evidently not so gay as I once thought. On the flip side Rock Hudson never pinged my gaydar in the slightest and he was actively and almost exclusively gay sexually despite his bearded marriage.

There are exclusively gay men that post on this board, and come across in their posts with a more serious and masculine gravitas than the vast majority of heterosexual men I know, while others have more of a spritely and delightful Peter Pan aspect and personality in their posts.

I appreciate your MYOB suggestion, but I do think I need to go somewhat beyond that in addressing the issue with him. Whether it’s his “business” or not, people (esp children) will make judgements about other people based on what they see. If I am to craft and raise his consciousness about this aspect of human nature I don’t think MYOB is really the most complete answer. He needs a touchstone.

11

spritely and delightful peter pan attitude

First I must sprinkle you with fairy d- FUCK!

trips over pointy shoes, crashes to floor

…pain.

12

What your kid most likely meant was “faggy” (not being combatant here either, honest), not that he thought the guy in question was attracted to people of the same sex. For kids the link isn’t made. My brother even at 16, having grown up around me and my wifey, knew we shared a home, a bed, etc, still hadn’t made the connection that we were (dum-dum-DUMMM) lesbians. He had our relationship very clear in his head, knew we were way, way more than friends etc, but just the semantic connection had not been made.

Lissas carnival anecdote is funny, cos I was coming into the thread to share my outed-to-kids-at-the-carnival story. At the carnival with friends and their 6-9 year olds, the littlest one had seen me giving mrsIteki a hug and a peck on the neck from behind while in the queue to some ride. Kiddy asks mommy, “Mommy, why did Iteki kiss mrsIteki?”.
Mommy in question says, cool as a cucumber and with a big grin, “Cos they’re in love of course silly!” :slight_smile: Coolest answer ever.
Kids are mirrors, a lot of the time they output what they input.

13

Before somone nitpicks me or calls cite, the second sentance should have been “For kids, the link isn’t always made”.
Thankies.

14

astro, I’ve noticed a disconcerting increase in the number of kids using “gay” as an insult/expression of generic badness, eg maths sucks, it’s so gay.

I agree with the other posters that this is a good time to talk with your son about stereotypes. Also make it clear that gay does not equal bad (whether it’s in the context of sexuality or of mathematics)!

Max

15

I think that children have no trouble working out that some people of the same sex have a “special” relationship, without necessarily understanding the sexual aspect of that relationship.

I had a gay uncle as a small child (still have the uncle, but I’m hardly a small child these days). I knew he had a “friend,” and that he and his friend lived together, and that there was only one bedroom in their apartment. I do not remember this ever striking me as odd. Later, as a teenager, I guess, I figured out that my uncle and his friend were gay, but by then I was so used to them being together that this was hardly a “eureka” moment, just sort of a trivial realization.

He’s still with the same friend, by the way, which is nice – the friend just seems like my other uncle now, since he’s been around forever.

16

We were watching (for amusement purposes) The Pet Psychic.
A cockateil came on, and she told the owner, “I think you have a gay bird!”
My son found this quite funny.
So I asked him if he knew what gay menat.
He said he didn’t.
I dunno…I doubt he’s heard anything in church settings (even though we have gone to definitely fundie churches) as most times he sits with me and not in kids class.
I hope he hasn’t heard anythign from the fundies.
We used to hang around with Phil when he lived in town. Phil was obviously gay, but its not like we talked about sex or anything.

17

My daughter’s 2nd grade teacher told me this story:
My daughter and her friend asked the teacher, “Miss xxx, do you think the Village People are gay?” Miss xxx responds, “Well, they’ve always seemed very cheerful to me.” The little girls scoff, “No, we mean like boys liking boys and girls liking girls,” to which Miss xxx replies, “You’re a girl, and I’m a girl, and I’m quite fond of you.” The children dismissed her with a disdainful sigh as obviously a really OLD person who understood nothing.

Those of us old enough to remember when Catholic nuns routinely wore the distinctive and enveloping black habit, wimple, etc. probably also recall the absolute astonishment of little children who had never seen this attire before. “Look, Mommy, a witch!” was one of the milder things.

Regarding “Children love all of those around them and for every right reason,” I wish this were true. Children have to be carefully taught in order to hate, but they also need to be carefully taught in order to be empathetic or polite.

18

Zenster - I have to disagree. The idea that children and animals are paragons of virtue because they haven’t been corrupted by adults is wishful thinking. In fact, kids very often will pick on anyone they perceive as different. This is not an attitude they learned from their parents, necessarily. As an example - when I was quite young my family moved to a rural Michigan town. Now, besides being absolutely tiny (smallest kid in my class throughout school) I was also smart and I read. Those variables, combined with being an “outsider” insured that kids picked on me mercilessly. Adults didn’t do that - they generally thought I was cute because I was so small. Wild animals will often reject even their own species if they are oddly coloured, such as albinism. I’m not saying hate can’t be learned, but that distrust of things different is not necessarily learned behaviour.

StG

19

Of course, astro, there’s a one-in-ten chance that your son is gay and was testing the waters on what your reaction would be . . . With a fundie mother, he’d really need a sympathetic dad.

20

When I was about 6 or 7 (I think?), my mom handed me the telephone and said in a very serious voice that my oldest sister had something really important to talk to me about. I got on the phone, my mind spinning slightly - what could be so important? I couldn’t even formulate an idea of what it could be…

She said she was a lesbian. My reaction? “So?”

Her reaction: “Do you know what that means?”

Me: “You like girls and you don’t like boys.”

Her: “Uh, yeah. Does that bother you?”

Me: “Why would it bother me?” Thinking - hey, just because you just figured it out, or just told me, doesn’t mean you are any different today than yesterday or any day before that… I knew she hadn’t changed, she was just telling me something she didn’t tell me before.

Her: “Um, I guess that’s okay, then. Can you put Mom back on the phone?”

I figured that her relationships were her business, and they meant nothing to me about my life, or about my relationship to her, or anything. She was my sister, yesterday, today, next week, no difference. Major no big deal. Just life. No prejudice, that I can tell.

I only encountered the idea of prejudice later, at school, when I mentioned this factoid to a friend. She said in outrage, “You really can’t believe everything you hear!” as if being a lesbian was something horrible that I should never ever believe of my sister. I, of course, told her that she told me herself, so I was betting it was true. She was shocked that I wasn’t bothered. Then puzzled. Then finally realized that to some people, sexual identity was no threat. She seemed to have decided it wouldn’t bother her, either. One prejudice down, 50 bazillion to go. I soon learned that most of the other kids were indeed horrified at the idea of a relative being gay. I assumed it was coming from their parents.

Sigh. It taught me that training counts for something.

My son, at the ripe old age of three, was outraged to learn that his aunties couldn’t get married just because they were both girls. He loves his aunties. I think he thought they were already married. (not that he has much concept of what that means - and at this point - 5.5 years old - he’s stated he’s never getting married anyway, as it involves smooching. EWWW!)

I’d be more prone to the “and what makes you think that?” answer. Make him explore his perception, his assumption, and his prejudice (as mild as his is, it exists). I’ve started more interesting conversations with that kind of approach than with any other (at least at that age - older, and you get ‘I dunno’). Older (14 and up), I’d go with “so?” instead.