Concerning Christians: I think they get lost in the literal and miss the spirit of their religion.
A Christian, in my opinion, would never have to tell you, you would know by the way they act.
All to many want to force their religion on others with the threats of death and hell, then tell you Jesus said to do that. Jesus said to teach the gospel and leave, if it wasn’t received. The gospel does not include the salvation story of Jesus dying for our sins.
Obviously, He was not dead when He said to preach the gospel.
Jesus taught some easy to understand, hard to do, things.
Like “Love your enemies,” “return good for evil,” etc. While these teachings may seem illogical, they carry within them the path to real understanding.
If I were a Christian I would live my life as kindly, gently as I could. Having compassion and love for those that attacked me.
Helping others wherever I could. But I would be myself.
I remember the story of a man named George. He went to heaven and God asked him what he had done with his life. Sheepishly he replied, I should have been more like Jesus. God answered him, “No, you should have been more like George.”
Have compassion on others, don’t be quick to judge, and learn all you can about everything.
I guess ** JS Princeton ** I am sort of looking for more personal answers here. I did write the OP because of my own personal experiences here on the SD. I thanked you for your links and though I guess I should of said it differently, I kind of wanted personal responses from dopers here and their takes on my questions. I apologize if I sounded selfish to you, maybe I am being a bit selfish here because I want to make sure that I am doing what I feel is right in my walk with Christ and I wanted to hear what others feel about the questions I asked.
I hope that answers your questions to your satisfaction.
Just for kicks, I’ve got another quotation having nothing to do with the previous discussion but related to dreamer’s OP on how to live a Christian life. It’s today’s Epistle lesson in most churches that use the common calendar of readings, from the 12th chapter of Romans:
Polycarp, thank you. I was looking at that reading in church this morning and thinking how much I’d like to see it in some discussions we’ve been having here.
Have I called anyone stupid? Was this directed at me? If not, why are you addressing me with it? Since this is the debates area, one can often find opinions that are going to be completely different than their own. Why do you think it belongs in the Pit?
You keep adding details and seem to want to create an entirely different text. But since you’ve brought it up, I would hope that men would find my daughter rather attractive provided they were adults. I wouldn’t consider them a Dork if they did. As far as vivid detail, I doubt it’s going to deviate much from what most couples do, one doesn’t need to be a voyeur. If it is against one’s will, that is another matter, but the specific text I provided doesn’t discuss this. Now I wouldn’t go so far as “Righteous Lot” and sacrifice my own virgin daughters to let perverts do as they please, nor would I sleep with them and get them pregnant as he had done either, but hey, that’s just me, and I‘m not considered righteous. One would think this would have been a good time for this biblical God to specifically scorn Lot for his actions.
You say “Lust is not desire” but in the same breath and in your own definition you give, it equates “lust” with “desire” or to use your exact phrase of “overwhelming desire” and also “sexual craving” so your argument isn’t very persuasive. Anyone who has ever copulated has had that sexual desire or lust. I used it in context in a sentence and I did equate lust with sexual desire or sexual urges and will continue to do so. When Jesus said whoever looketh on a woman with lust after her, he has already committed adultery, it seems to show that he was talking about sexual desire. I don’t think Jesus would have used as strong a word as “adultery” if he didn’t think it was a sin. Webster’s unabridged dictionary gives “lust” any of these meanings:
lust, n. desire, pleasure.
1.overmastering desire; eagerness to possess or enjoy; as ,a lust for power.
2. a desire to gratify the senses; bodily appetite.
3. (a) sexual desire; (b)excessive sexual desire, especially as seeking unrestrained gratification.
4. vigor; active power.
5 desire; wish; inclination
6. pleasure.
If you go with what is written in the Bible to the Greek word that is used in Strong’s, with the verse used in Matthew, you’ll find the word “epithumeo”, and in that definition it shows, “covet, desire, would fain, lust (after).”
it isn’t a fair comparison if he didn’t even experience lust
Again, He didn’t, but this is different than thinking some woman is cute and desirable in the general sense.
Dreamer has stated that Jesus did have all the same feelings and urges we do. Only he had more knowledge and love for God (or himself), so that kept him from following in sin like the rest of us. You say Jesus never experienced lust. If he never experienced a sexual desire or lust for a woman, then he didn’t have the same urges.
Yes, I would say these Christians are fortunate, as opposed, to “self-castrating” themselves; hating their mother, father, children, and even one’s own life; being pro-slavery; not giving anything that someone would ask of you; not turning the other cheek or loving Saddam Hussein or others one would consider your enemy. If all were to emulate Jesus’ celibate lifestyle, we would have died out several thousands years ago if one truly wanted to follow him as example. If we were to ever turn the other cheek, and love our enemy; we, as a nation would be no more either.
**Again, just for starters, you do realize that if the Christians crashed all the psuedo-atheistic thread around here like this, they’d be pilloried. **
The OP asks what it was it meant to be “Christ-like.” Jesus didn’t seem to have a care in the world for material goods either, and the Bible portrays him as being a wanderer. If you think I’ve erred in my description of him or his teachings, by all means correct me. So just what part of “Christ-like” are you trying to emulate, if any? I’m not concerned about a Christian emulating every detail, just some consistency as to why they pick and choose this or that and ignore this or that and why they think it is admirable and still think they are being “Christ-like.” This isn’t to say, I don’t think there are some good teachings, but his often come way up short. Oh, BTW, if you call this crashing, then that is just too damn bad. That is lame, man, and you can do better than that.
Please, please get some actual appreciation of the real points of Christianity before going off on the rants. Everything said here frankly betrays a lack of research on the subject.
Frankly, most of your opinions are lame, and seem to show only what real points of Christianity you would like for it to say. Too bad, if my disagreements with you qualify as a rant. Maybe you’re used to the back-patting, and give me a Amen crowd, and how dare anyone offer an opinion that is so much different than yours.
*1. “self-castrating” themselves *
This could only be in the most figurative sense, in the sense of avoiding lust, the definition of which, see above.
2.hating their mother, father, children, and even one’s own life
**Again, this is not showing much knowledge of every interpretation I’ve ever heard of this passage: The feeling for God should be so great that by comparison, other attachments feel like hate.
You could show some knowledge by realizing it wasn’t an interpretation. It’s a literal reading of the verse given, compared to yours which has it attempting to lead out of the text something you would like for it to mean without giving one iota of scripture to buttress your assertion. Yours is the more subjective one.
*3. being pro-slavery *
**You really are stretching with this one. First, you have to say that Jesus was coming to right every wrong in the world in the three year span of His ministry. First, there’s the practical point that being a slave revolutionary leader would have caused such political problems that He would probably have been arrested and gotten nothing else done. Then there’s the point that slavery at the time was not much like the American version at all. People often sold themselves into slavery to pay off debts, or to have a secure job. The Jews were explicitly directed to release their slaves on a schedule, and to treat them well. **
First you accuse me of stretching, but then it seems you are already making excuses for Jesus’ pro-slavery views by saying one had to realize the political problems he would have faced. Hell, man, it couldn‘t have been any worse than what the welcoming committee gave him in the end. Jesus, being God had to weigh this into account, eh? Did he being God, have the power to do what he wanted or didn’t he? Just think what Jesus could have done if he had Moses magical wand. But I digress…
4. not giving anything that someone would ask of you; not turning the other cheek or loving Saddam Hussein or others one would consider your enemy. If all were to emulate Jesus’ celibate lifestyle, we would have died out several thousands years ago if one truly wanted to follow him as example. If we were to ever turn the other cheek, and love our enemy; we, as a nation would be no more either.
First, I don’t think many people at all would say that this instruction is for the national scale. Even besides that, the real point here I think is not to be resentful and to be the kind of person who can bear unjust persecution without insisting on the “eye-for-an-eye” retribution. Self defense is another issue all together.
I’m sure specific spriptures will be forthcoming, and it will be in perfect harmony as to the other verses that Jesus is supposed to have said.
You know, I broke two of my rules when getting involved in this:
Don’t get snippy with people.
Don’t get involved in GD threads arguing religion.
They have in my experience, without exception, been a waste of time. As much as I try to be reasonable and low-key, I often don’t do it well, and I find it even rarer that everyone involved is trying to actually learn and appreciate the other side.
Do we really think that a religion with billions of adherents over thousands of years doesn’t have some pretty darn good responses to objections? Some of them had to have been pretty bright. I wish that we all could remember this in regard to the other side of pretty much any debate.
Dreamer’s OP was put in GD, I’m guessing, because for some reason ANY honest discussion of religion is put in here by the mods if found elswhere, even if it’s inviting opinions of like-minded people and not trying to be evangelical.
No, I’m not just ducking the argument so I can claim I didn’t “lose”. I’m weary of arguing things in a manner that I don’t like from others, and extra weary of feeling that no matter what I say, it will not be appreciated or the points acknowledged.
Bye.
This is the point where someone calls me a wuss, or says I’m just making excuses, or that I’m weak or inadequate. Right?
Don’t worry about it Cardinal. I understand what you mean about becoming weary of arguing here. The reason I posted this OP was and is because I am really struggling to find my position here. I still believe the bible to be the word of God, but especially right this minute, I’m lost as to how to discuss that without people jumping all over it and getting upset. Maybe it is best to walk away. I don’t know anymore.
I’m feeling quite weak and inadequate along with you…
For the most part I have enjoyed reading most of this thread. I feel pretty much like dreamer and Cardinal concerning disruptive rude posts. Yes, that most particularly mean you, John.
So, walk away? Please don’t. I would suggest instead that you exercise the ignore option by either not responding at all to such posts, or put the poster on your “ignore list” to filter their posts out of your direct view.
Sometimes silence, instead of responding, is the right thing to do.
Polycarp, I still have my Common Prayer book given to me upon Confirmation at St. Nickolas Episcopal Church. I view it now and then, but prefer my heart-to-heart prayer and chat with Him. Tris - what a blessing your insights are.
John’s posts make perfect sense, even though they’re in complete disagreement with the view usually held by christian people. If some extraterrestrial ignoring everything about christiannity was handed the scriptures and asked what it would mean to be christ-like, he would be as likely to pick John’s interpretation than the usual christian one, and conclude that a good christian should for instance pluck his eye off if ever he looks at a woman with desire. I too think that christians pick and choose the content of the scriptures, keep what is in accordance with their own views and morals (which could change over time) and ignore, discard or interpret in strange ways what they don’t like.
Anyway : John’s post may have been disruptive in the sense that dreamer asked the opinions of christian people, so in some way he wasn’t “invited”. However, there’s no rule I’m aware of on the SDMB which allow OPs to tell which poster will be allowed or not to post in their threads and to enforce this rule.
In any cases John wasn’t rude. You might not like what he said, or might not like the mere fact that he posted in this thread, but he wasn’t rude.
You know **Mars Horizon **, I had to go to dictionary.com just to figure out what the heck grok meant. But hey, that’s cool. I’m glad we can grok on the same thread :D.
You know, Cardinal, I could agree that somebody casually leafing through the Bible might come away with the viewpoint that John Zahn argued. However, the key to proper use of the Bible for a Christian is to be guided by the concepts of Christ’s Lordship and the sending of the Holy Spirit.
Paul, often seen as demanding faith-only adherence to doctrine and hatefulness towards others, underscores this in his letters, and John is explicit in both his account of Christ’s life and work and his letters that that sort of showing of love towards God and man is key to what being Christian means.
So no, what John Zahn describes is not what being a Christian means, it’s rather what being an idolater of the Bible would mean. Unfortunately, there are more than a few people who fail to make that distinction, and refer to themselves by the former when what they’re doing is the latter.
Perhaps they should read with understanding and prayer the book they claim to be championing! :eek:
We are supposed to love everyone. There is no question about it. Keep in mind that we are also to be honest with people, and sometimes they may take honesty as hate. We cannot distort the truth so people feel comfortable. This is a very bad thing. Jesus told the woman to stop sinning. He didn’t say ‘do as you want as long as you’re happy’. Remember, everyone must know the truth. If they choose to abide by it or ignore it is not up to us. * That does not mean stop spreading the gospel.* Judas let his love of money come before Jesus. Jesus still loved him. Jesus came to earth to call the sinners to repentance. 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
When it comes to a person claiming to be a fellow christian, you must be careful. Read 1 Corinthians 5 and 6. Pay special attention to chapter 6 and tell me what you think.
Good point. It is very important to be loving. If you get angry, remember that you are only human. Dust yourself off and ask God to forgive you and to give you the strength. He will either give you the word to speak or tell you to walk away from the evil.
It is very nice to get praise and recognition from friends, but make sure it is not in vain. Jesus first!
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
If you tell someone they are wrong and they believe they are right, they will not like that. If you tell someone God, the creator of all things, says you are wrong, and you must put away your worldly loves and make God first, they will hate you. They don’t want their worldly possessions to be a bad thing.
Polycarp, no I’m not ignoring you, just very busy. I’ll get back to you shortly.
And hence the crux of it - what you believe to be “The Truth” is most assuredly is not what a lot of other people believe to be “The Truth.” Perhaps if you stopped parading around your “The Truth” as “THE Truth” and rather prefixed every statement of such with “I believe,” then maybe people would be able to have reasoned interactions with you.
Otherwise, you sound like a loon. Your high-handed superior holier-than-thou attitude does more damage to your cause than you will ever know.
So it seems I’m right back where I started. Either tell everyone what God says and tell them you believe it to be true and thus they will hate you, which God says they will. Or love them with the love of Christ and let him be the judge.
Can’t it be both ways? It seems that when I came here I told everyone what I believed and then some came to not like me very much. Then I decided to love them with the love of Christ and I seem to be respected. (though I could be wrong).
So either I stopped judging them because I figured they already knew what I believed, or I stopped because I didn’t like not being liked. I’m pretty sure it’s not the latter because I’ve never been afraid to say what I believe whether I’m liked or not.
Again, if you very clearly state your beliefs as just that - your beliefs - then chances are you’ll fare pretty well in general. Sure, some people might not like you for your beliefs, but prefacing your statements as something only that you believe and - here’s the important part - not as The Truth To End All Truths Amen, then people’s feathers would not be quite so ruffled. It’s when people say, “The Bible says…” and wield it as a weapon, or “God says…” meaning no one dare disagree - that’s when one steps over the line from Christian in good faith to Fundamentalist Bigot (IMHO, that is).
Yeah, but what if I believe God’s word is truth? I mean I know scripture is always going to be up for debate, but the bottom line message of the bible is not.
I know it’s not right to say “the bible is truth so you must believe it too”, I understand that. And I have no problem with people who disagree, that’s their choice. I also understand that it sounds very condescending to sit here and tell you to stop doing what you’re doing because God says so. But, I also cannot sit back and do nothing because if you are doing something I believe God says to be wrong, I would want you to figure that out for yourself.
Similarly, I’d love for you to realize that, IMHO, God, in whatever form you perceive he/she/it to be (if there is one at all) wouldn’t be that vindictive, and that the Bible, IMHO, is nothing more than a collection of wonderful folk tales that people have warped way out of proportion.
In the meantime, by not sitting back and doing nothing to save my immortal soul, you are most assuredly attacking one of the core ingredients to my humanity. How can one not take offense?
I’ve heard your Word. I don’t believe it. That’s about the size of it. And I suppose, for that, we’ll always see the other as slightly foolish, eh?
Dreamer: You’ve never read Stranger in a Strange Land? Run, do not walk, to the nearest bookstore or library and pick it up. (Get Job: A Comedy of Justice by the same author, Robert A. Heinlein, while you’re there.)
You’re in for a treat – and a challenge to your thinking. Let me know what you think.
