The Nintendo Wii is the Celine Dion of this generation of consoles.

[Justin_Bailey]

@Kalibakthegreat

The problem with this line of thinking is that the Wii is built and conceptualized solely around its unique controller, intentionally choosing weaker processing and graphics in exchange for a new, alternative approach to play. It is then reneging on this promise by simply offering a non-new, non-alternative approach to play, and even going as far as to put forth flagship titles that allow the user to not even use the Wii’s own controller, which once again is the entire reason for its existence.

I’m sorry, but you are wrong. Since revealing the Wii Remote, Nintendo has always said that the Wii would also have the capability for a traditional controller and the GameCube controller.

@Kalibakthegreat

And here’s the problem with this; pursuing a casual, mainstream, middle-of-the-road audience is and has always been the death knell of creative, critical, and artistic success, which once again is the whole point of this OP. Movie studios catering/pandering to a casual, middle-of-the-road audience instead of cinephiles and movie hounds gives us films like College Road Trip and White Girls. The music industry aiming for a casual, middle-of-the-road, mainstream audience instead of real music aficionados gives us Celine Dion (see the OP/metaphor) and Creed. This approach is always terrible for quality, art, critical achievement, etc. because it requires making the product as inoffensive, dumbed-down, unchallenging and nonthreatening as possible in order to achieve that mass m.o.r. appeal.

This argument might hold some water if it wasn’t for the fact that Nintendo’s big franchises already hit the casual, mainstream, middle-of-the-road audience.

There is no video game franchise more universal (and accessible) than Mario.

@Kalibakthegreat

Perhaps this is for another thread and argument, but I really don’t buy that a new generation of “casual gamers” is here, in that we’re dealing with people that are “into” games as far as they’ll buy systems and buy games for them and play them but can’t really tell the difference between good and bad games and don’t really keep up with release dates and publishers and so on. Casual gamers have always been with us and always will be, but their numbers are no larger now than they have been. What we do have are a lot of people who have bought Wiis or DS’es based on the appealing gimmick of their interfaces (to these casuals) and then not continued to buy games for them and moved on.

I have put this theory out there before, (and been laughed at for it) but here it goes again. There is not a major gulf between “good” games and “bad” games.

It is my belief that there are very few bad games, games with mechanics so horrible that they become unplayable. This just does not happen on any game platform. Any person reasonably familiar with a genre would be able to enjoy (at least on the surface) any game from a genre they enjoy.

This doesn’t mean that certain games aren’t better than other games. Your Grand Theft Auto will always be better than your True Crime for example. But if all you’ve ever played is True Crime, and you think its good, that’s not a crazy notion.

[Kalibakthegreat]

@D_Odds

Bingo. Mrs D_Odds won’t touch the PS2 we have. Even the simple games are more complicated than she likes. But the Wii is fun, even for the simple games. Limited flashing and distracting graphics that give her a headache, no motion-sickness inducing games (yet - I may get one for me). Two buttons…that’s fine by her. No complicated A+B, up, down, L1, L2 to hit a move. Makes me happy too. I’ll leave remembering those codes to people half my age. I just want to pick up a controller and start smashing Pikachu with Donkey Kong (although Pikachu, played by Li’l D_Odds, usually wins).

The Wii’s controller has a total of 11 buttons and directional pads. The PS2’s controller has 13. We’re dealing with a learned helplessness here, not a quantifiable difference in complexity between the two. The fact that the Wii looks like a remote control makes it appealing to people, not that it’s somehow fundamentally simpler and more accessible.

[Kalibakthegreat]

@Justin_Bailey

DS connectivity is a bonus that I don’t particularly care about (and I don’t know many gamers who do either). Would it be nice if Nintendo gave the Wii something extra? Sure. But to say it’s a flaw is ridiculous.

Actually, Nintendo repeated again and again that the DS would be instrumental to the Wii, and fundamentally integrated with the system as far back as the initial “Revolution” era. This turned out to be completely wrong, but they promised it again and again and again and again.

[Ice_Cream_Man]

I don’t really get what you’re trying to accomplish with your OP. I love my Wii and I play it all the time. Do you want me to stop playing it? Would you like it if I sold my Wii and bought a 360 or PS3 instead?

Or do you just want to judge me for listening to Celine Dion?

[Justin_Bailey]

@Kalibakthegreat

Completely untrue on all fronts. I could make a list of all of the “must-have” titles that are not yet available on VC

OK, let’s do it. The concept of a “must have” game differs from person to person, but I think we can all agree that following games count:

[ul]
[li]All of the “main series” Mario games and many of the spinoffs[/li][li]Four of the five Zelda games (with only Majora’s Mask being unavailable)[/li][li]Three of the four “main” Sonic the Hedgehog games (and most of the spinoffs), [*]Both Metroid titles[/li][li]Mario Kart 64[/li][li]Super Mario Bros. The Lost Levels and Sin & Punishment, two games that were never released in America before [/li][li]Star Fox 64[/li][li]Contra III[/li][li]Punch-Out!![/li][li]F-Zero and F-Zero X[/li][li]Donkey Kong Country 1, 2 & 3[/li][li]Streets of Rage 1, 2 & 3[/li][li]Wave Race 64[/li][li]Comix Zone[/li][li]2 of 4 Nintendo Castlevania games[/li][li]All three Ninja Gaiden games[/li][li]Kid Icarus[/li][/ul]

And more are coming every week.

[Kalibakthegreat]

@Justin_Bailey

OK, let’s do it. The concept of a “must have” game differs from person to person, but I think we can all agree that following games count:

[ul]
[li]All of the “main series” Mario games and many of the spinoffs[/li][li]Four of the five Zelda games (with only Majora’s Mask being unavailable)[/li][li]Three of the four “main” Sonic the Hedgehog games (and most of the spinoffs), [*]Both Metroid titles[/li][li]Mario Kart 64[/li][li]Super Mario Bros. The Lost Levels and Sin & Punishment, two games that were never released in America before [/li][li]Star Fox 64[/li][li]Contra III[/li][li]Punch-Out!![/li][li]F-Zero and F-Zero X[/li][li]Donkey Kong Country 1, 2 & 3[/li][li]Streets of Rage 1, 2 & 3[/li][li]Wave Race 64[/li][li]Comix Zone[/li][li]2 of 4 Nintendo Castlevania games[/li][li]All three Ninja Gaiden games[/li][li]Kid Icarus[/li][/ul]

And more are coming every week.

Start a new thread if you must. But you must be joking with that list.

[Justin_Bailey]

@Kalibakthegreat

Start a new thread if you must. But you must be joking with that list.

Would you care to tell me which of those titles are not classics?

I’m genuinely curious.

[Kalibakthegreat]

@Justin_Bailey

Would you care to tell me which of those titles are not classics?

I’m genuinely curious.

Dude, new-thread it!

[Justin_Bailey]

@Kalibakthegreat

Dude, new-thread it!

We are discussing the merits of the Wii. The Virtual Console is a major selling point of the Wii. How is that a hijack?

Beyond that, I’m still not sure how the Wii can be a failure at anything. A system is only as good as its games and only someone with half a brain can argue that any of the three current systems doesn’t have at least a few classics already.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

@fluiddruid

I’ll say this much. On paper, I absolutely agree with you. But here’s what the problem is – the Wii is fun, and broadly accessible.

Too many game developers have forgotten that games are supposed to be fun. I have stopped caring if games are visually stunning, because amazing graphics has typically been done at the expense of good gameplay. I don’t want ultra-realistic blood and bile spurts. I don’t need perfect ragdoll physics for plummeting corpses. I want fun. The Wii is fun.

Do I wish there were more good third party games? Yes.

Should Nintendo crack down on shitty ports that give the console a bad name? Absolutely.

Does it peeve me off uncontrollably that the Wii version of Rock Band is basically a port of the PS2 version? Oh mais oui.

But everyone and his dog wants a Wii and has for years. Not just gamers, mind you, but everybody else. Anyone from a five year old kid to an eighty year old can enjoy the Wii. The PS2 and the XBox 360 absolutely cannot say the same. There are plenty of people out there who want to play games but don’t want to play first person shooters or sports games, and are being underserved by the other consoles. Hell, I’m a gamer (PC mostly anymore) and I feel underserved by the other consoles. I don’t care about World War II, bloody gorefests or playing online with howling frat boys. On a console, I want quirky, interesting games, or games that I can play with friends and family. What do you get for that? A Wii.

The past landmarks of winning consoles don’t apply to the Wii. No other game console has been sold to such a huge degree for demo minigames and nothing else. You can call the Wii a gimmick, but it’s no Power Glove - it’s functional, amusing, and makes the system popular among non-gamers to an unprecedented degree.

Hell, even when trying I still can’t come up with a lot of good reasons to buy a PS2 or XBox 360 – at least not enough to justify the price. But the Wii’s price is right and I’m sticking to the known good quantities. It’s been worth it just for Wii Sports, Mario Galaxy, and Endless Ocean and soon enough I’ll probably add Mario Kart Wii, Super Paper Mario and Wii Fit to the list.

There are admittedly a lot of games that aren’t taking advantage of the Wiimote - Brawl is a good example. But I’m sure these games entered development a long time ago before it was really known if people would “take” to the movement controls. I’m willing to give it time. Brawl is more of the same, but it’s at least an amusing ride. Nintendo does have the horrible sickness of riding their franchises, but they at least are polished games that are fun and usable. Too many game franchises can’t say the same.

Game, set, match.
And with that, I’m off to sweat out a titanic struggle in Wii tennis…with my six year old son, and I might win, too, if he feels bad for dear old Dad.
Otherwise it’s bedtime! No soup!

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

@Kalibakthegreat

Movie studios catering/pandering to a casual, middle-of-the-road audience instead of cinephiles and movie hounds gives us films like College Road Trip and White Girls. The music industry aiming for a casual, middle-of-the-road, mainstream audience instead of real music aficionados gives us Celine Dion (see the OP/metaphor) and Creed. This approach is always terrible for quality, art, critical achievement, etc. because it requires making the product as inoffensive, dumbed-down, unchallenging and nonthreatening as possible in order to achieve that mass m.o.r. appeal.

<Snippety snip>
Since when, outside of Rocky Horror Picture Show, has a movie been interactive?
Or music?
The Wii IS interactive and unique. Just because it has disappointing titles just like every other system EVER doesn’t make it bad. If I want to play FPS online, I use my computer.
Any videogame that actually involves exercise and not button-mashing gets a vote of confidence from me, and it’s broad appeal is a plus, except to a handfull of graphics and internet playability junkies like you.

[Just_Some_Guy]

Guys there’s no need to feed the troll. My earlier response was directed at other posters in the thread but it’s probably better to just let this thread go away.

[Kalibakthegreat]

@Just Some Guy

Guys there’s no need to feed the troll. My earlier response was directed at other posters in the thread but it’s probably better to just let this thread go away.

What an incredibly rude thing to say! This has been an adult and interesting conversation thus far, and I’m grateful for it.

[Bosstone]

@Just Some Guy

Guys there’s no need to feed the troll.

Yeah, this isn’t cool. I think people who dump on the Wii for not living up to their expectations, when it’s clearly living up to millions of other peoples’, are just a touch misguided. But trollish? No.

[Autumn_Almanac]

Kalibak, I think a lot of your criticisms are valid, but what do you expect them to do with the Virtual Console? Release every desirable game all at once, then let it languish forever without updates? Maintaining steady interest (and preventing fatigue) by releasing 1-3 games per week is a much better strategy. Nintendo is a business after all. (And I agree with Justin that the current VC library is an embarrassment of riches. I’d like to see you elaborate on your argument that the list of games he provided is a “joke.”)

[fluiddruid]

@Just Some Guy

Guys there’s no need to feed the troll. My earlier response was directed at other posters in the thread but it’s probably better to just let this thread go away.

Just Some Guy, insults are not allowed in this forum. If you want to accuse other posters of trolling, the place to do so is in the Pit, not here. This is a warning. Do not do this again.

[stpauler]

I don’t go to Macy’s to buy tools and I don’t go to Sears to buy fashionable clothing. They’re both department stores and both have their purposes. That’s how I view my Wii and Xbox 360.

I bought my Wii first and have played with friends and family of all ages on it. I got enthralled and finished Resident Evil 4 which is the first time in maybe 10 years that I finished a game. Wii has been a great bridge for getting those folks in my life to play video games with me AND have fun than any other system. Our 8 year old son, who is a huge gamer, is able to play games with his 6 year old sister who normally has no interest (they both completed Disney’s Enchanted Journey together without my help). I’ll sit down with them and we’ll all play Mario Party 8. The controller and game play is perfectly fit for them (whereas the gamecube controller, even the smaller one, is still a bit unwieldy for her tiny hands).

That being said, I did feel left out from all of the “cool” games. The problem was the PS3s price point was out of what I thought would be a value return and the 360s Red Ring of Death was something I didn’t want to deal with. I got my free subscription of Game Informer from GameStop and after all of the hype surrounding Bioshock, I finally succumbed to temptation (plus there was a $50 paypal rebate so it was only $229). And Bioshock lived up to the hype. The graphics? Gorgeous. Gameplay? Amazing. And a story that actually made sense. After that, I followed the legends of the system, Orange Box, Gears of War, and Call Of Duty 4. I was a little unimpressed by those. But Prey, Rainbow Six Vegas, and Beautiful Katamari have kept me in its fold. All of the games I’ve played on this system ('cept Katamari) are not family friendly and so far, that seems to be the status quo for the 360. That’s not to say that there aren’t any, but that the quality games aren’t really there. There’s also the fact that, like has been said in this thread already, sometimes I don’t want to be flailing my arms around all the time while playing a game.

All of this is to say that the Wii isn’t just a flash in the pan, overhyped, underpowered, dismissable system. It has its place when it comes to the casual gamer and families. But on the other side, the Wii isn’t going to be able to handle the sweet new games like GTA IV or Ghostbusters.

For me,

[dotchan]

I’m the kind of person that buys consoles because it has a game I want to play. (Final Fantasy Tactics got me into PSX, Disgaea the PS2, and it looks like Disgaea 3 will put a ~$450 dent in my pocket once it gets localized.)

So far, I’m not a fan of the Wiimote. Mind you, I only played it once for one of those Dragon Ball Z fighting games, and I don’t really like fighting games, but fundamentally I’m a lazy bastard and I got bored with waving the wiimote around trying to get it to read my motions. (I’m not all that impressed by Guitar Hero for the similar reasons; I do try to play DDR every once in a while for exercise, but that’s about it.)

Then again, I didn’t like Game Cube’s version of Twilight Princess (my complaint - some of the items felt really gimmicky, especially that skateboard thing), so YMMV.

[Least_Original_User_Name_Ever]

@dotchan

I’m the kind of person that buys consoles because it has a game I want to play. (Final Fantasy Tactics got me into PSX, Disgaea the PS2, and it looks like Disgaea 3 will put a ~$450 dent in my pocket once it gets localized.)

So far, I’m not a fan of the Wiimote. Mind you, I only played it once for one of those Dragon Ball Z fighting games, and I don’t really like fighting games, but fundamentally I’m a lazy bastard and I got bored with waving the wiimote around trying to get it to read my motions. (I’m not all that impressed by Guitar Hero for the similar reasons; I do try to play DDR every once in a while for exercise, but that’s about it.)

Then again, I didn’t like Game Cube’s version of Twilight Princess (my complaint - some of the items felt really gimmicky, especially that skateboard thing), so YMMV.

When we went and bought Twilight Princess for the Wii, the lady behind the counter told us to not open it and play the Game Cube version first. Her son told her the Game Cube version was better. We told her we had no intention of getting the Game Cube version (after all, we bought it when we bought the console itself). I’ve also heard the same thing from a few different people.

[Autumn_Almanac]

@Least Original User Name Ever

I’ve also heard the same thing from a few different people.

It’s worth noting that the game was designed and built to be played on the GameCube, and only ported to Wii after the GC version was completely finished, which necessitated some compromises. I’m sure that if and when Nintendo builds a new Zelda game from the ground up with Wii controls in mind, it will feel a lot more natural.