The official "Mr. Moto is a clueless right-wing Republican shill" thread

Incorrect. Either as a direct question or as an implication (ie, it’s impossible to say someone is not in the mainstream without defining something in the mainstream from which they deviate), at least three posters (not counting myself) asked you for this. Neurotik, Boret, and the other ‘newby’ to whom I believe you were referring.

Point of order, while I’m at it: ‘newby’ is a rather inane slur. First, it says nothing about the person’s argument, and second, they may have been reading the board (and maybe even your posts) for years. Hint, hint.

I don’t care what you “think” is necessary. It’s obviously a debateable position, as evidenced by the fact that someone who is an extreme leftist would hardly be expected to garner nearly 50% of a national vote. This is self-evident, and your “argument” is a handwave. You made exactly two cites: an NRA study and the National Journal article. WRT the NRA bit: this active hunter and marksman and former NRA member joins Bricker in questioning the honesty, methodology, and results of such. WRT the National Journal piece: they state outright in the introductions to their “key vote” definitions and ranking that it “grossly oversimplifies the legislative process” and is simply a crude guide, to be used towards further investigation. It also, I will note, does not address the actual issue at hand; officials are ranked based on comparison to each other, not in terms of the “mainstream” of the populace. So you first need to justify why its even apropos (not that the case can’t be made, but you certainly haven’t done so) before one even gets into the other problems with it.

False. You have not mentioned a single position held by anyone, iirc, other than Kerry’s gun positions which were highly distorted. Other posters, by comparison, have cited (for example), Santorum’s linking of homosexual acts to man-on-dog sex and posited that such is opposed to the mainstream position that homosexuality has nothing to do with fucking dogs. They have defined one bit of the “center” via specific position held by an elected official.

You have not done so. You lose.

One position at a time, starting with the more important ones hopefully. See above.

Inane. You were not accused of hiding your positions. You were accused of:

  1. Not illustrating how Kerry, et al, are outside the mainstream;
  2. Making explicit your conception of the “mainstream”, give that most of the positions you said you hold are exactly those held by an alleged raving madman (Dean). Only a handwave was offered in response. “We all KNOW Dean is crazy! Get with the program!”

“Lie” goes to intent. I may have been guilty of hyperbole. Let me rephrase more accurately:

  1. You have offered only two cites to back up your claims of certain people being far outside the mainstream, both of which have been deemed unreliable by people on your own side of the ideological spectrum–one of which didn’t even offer specifics on any actual positions.

  2. Again: You have steadfastly refused to outline but one actual policy position held by an elected official which is allegedly outside the mainstream (Kerry/NRA), and have also steadfastly refused to explain how you holding almost across-the-board “liberal” positions in self-cited issues makes you a sensible centrist while it makes others raving lunatics. That is the true central issue here. You seem to be bashing for no reason other than a label, as you have not submitted for examination much in the way of actual, documented differences between not only “liberals” and the “mainstream” but “liberals” and yourself.

Incorrect. If you follow politics at all, and being a regular reader and contributor to this board, you must already be familiar with at least his more extreme positions (which I daresay are also all you know about Pelosi, and you consider it sufficient for judgement in her case). What did you know about him, pray tell, before your recent “research”, and why was it not enough for you to already believe that he was as extreme as her; and what makes her so extreme that you needed to know so much about Santorum before relating the two? You still haven’t said anything other than what amounts to “She’s from san fran, she must be a looney!” Please.

Incorrect. Your obvious implication had nothing to do with strictly being the chair of the national party or not; it went to the issue of place of influence in the party, generally. If your statement really was meant to be so limited, feel free to say so; it makes it a totally inane tautology. Not much better.

A high-ranking Senator, I think nearly everyone would agree, has far more impact on both policy and (more arguably) its day-to-day presentation to the public than does the party chairman.

I agree. In fact, in post #247 I stated:

It seems that the Democrat political thinkers do realize that you need a moderate to win an election, just like the republican ones do. My objection to Kerry is not the way he ran for office, he did do that as a moderate. My objection is more in his liberal voting record which is arguably the most liberal in the senate (or the laziest, as others have pointed out).

My point was that picking Kerry to run for president, with his liberal voting record, was a bad move for the Democrats. But, at least he ran as a moderate and has acted like one ever since. The selection of a bomb thrower like Dean is a similar mistake, except that he isn’t even pretending to act like a moderate. Ditto for Pelosi.

You keep saying these things. You’re blowing smoke until you clarify at least these two bits:

  1. Show how Pelosi deviates further from the center than, say, Dennis Hastert. You’re going to have trouble if you go back to your other source–Pelosi rates 88th percentile liberal on economic issues, about the same as Hastert’s 84th percentile conservative. Hastert didn’t even vote often enough to get a ranking in any of the other categories–what were you saying about Kerry being lazy?

  2. Not only have you not even attempted to refute that Dean was always a model centrist, endorsed even by the NRA, with anything other than a “but he’s different now!!11!!!” assertion; you have also failed to compare him appropriately to other people in the equivalent position. Make a case that he’s more of a “bomb thrower” than Ken Mehlman. I daresay that, again, you’ll have a difficult road ahead of you.

To summarize: not only are you failing to back up your bald assertions, you’re also not comparing those you mention to their equivalents on the other “side”, which is obviously an appropriate measure if you’re trying to establish that “Side X chooses people who are far outside the mainstream!”

Addendum: Bill Frist, leader of the Senate, darling of the party, and widely expected to at least enter the primaries in 2006, differs from Kerry by .3% on the National Journal scale. Teddy Kennedy? Less than two percent different from Frist. Again: the only cite you’ve offered very much weakens your assertion that Democrats put substantively more leadership into the hands of a “fringe” element than do the Republicans.

If you’d like to try again with a different cite, and retract any assertions you made based on this one, feel free.

This brings up an interesting point, though. Are the parties obligated to run moderates, or liberals, or conservatives?

I don’t think they are obligated to run people of any ideological stripe specifically. However, if they keep running losers, they won’t be able to move any kind of agenda forward.

It may have come to pass that the Republicans can get away with running and electing strong ideological conservatives, and the Democrats cannot similarly get away with electing strong ideological liberals in as many high profile races. To win more races, they may have to run more moderate candidates than the Republicans have to.

Liberals in the Democratic Party may consider this terribly unfair. But Republicans had to deal with this for years, too, with moderates like Nixon and Eisenhower.

Over the last generation, debate in this country has shifted rightward, and I regard this as a healthy thing. Democrats, for example, will not defend the Johnson-era 70% top tax rate. That’s permanently gone, and we as a country will never see it again.

In this environment, a Democratic moderate can win and can move many Democratic agenda items forward. A raving leftist won’t get far.

So the Democrats have to choose victory over ideological purity, just as a lot of Republicans had to when the center was well to the left of them. Otherwise, they’ll be further marginalized.

Here, I don’t agree with you, coleridge78. I think it’s easy to show Howard Dean as “bomb-thrower” in a way that Ken Mehlman is not.

Find me anything remotely similar from Mr. Mehlman…

But not much. Even by running a raging liberal like Kerry, we managed a 3% margin against Bush. If we are to believe** Debaser**, there is a vast gulf between Kerry and the center. We hardly need to nominate Zell Miller to win elections. There are plenty of liberal Democrats marginally more moderate, that are still true to the party’s core values that can pick up that 1.5% of swing voters.

I’m assuming you’re talking about some folks’ utter lack of a sense of humor, a ridiculous inability to laugh at themselves. You made a stupid mistake; you took some ribbing for it. A bigger man would have laughed along with the others; you take it as a chance to lash out at the folks teasing you as if you’re seven years old.

You made a mistake. No harm, no foul. I agree that some folks infer too much from your mistake. But for God’s sake, for a mistake as funny as calling Santorum a wacky liberal in response to a request to calibrate the political scale, you gotta expect some teasing. Grow a pair and take it in stride.

On topic: it seems to me as if the Republican party is running plenty of hard-core fringe conservatives for office, and winning. They take positions far to the right of the country as a whole.

And they win, not because the country is far more conservative than it looks, but because starting in the eighties, the Republican party got a tremendous advantage in organizing its constituents. And with Rove, the Republicans have got a tremendous mind directing campaign strategy.

Right doesn’t make might, necessarily; the good guys don’t always win. While it’s probably comforting to assume that your horse wins because everyone loves your horse, it looks likely to me that your horse wins because your horse has got some great backers.

Daniel

Why compare her to Hastert? Wouldn’t a comparison to Frist be more apples to apples?

I’ve already posted cites about Deans rhetoric and how it’s even drawing fire from fellow democrats because he’s so over the top. You can ignore it, but it is there.

I went to google news and searched on “Ken Mehlman”

Here are the first five results:

cite

cite

cite

Nothing unusual here. Just an interview with Gwen Ifill.

cite

cite

This is all pretty normal stuff that you would expect of a party chairman. He’s meeting with different groups, raising money from the party and doing interviews. Notice how little foaming of the mouth there seems to be with him.

Now here are the first five news articles that appear for “Howard Dean”:

(The second and fifth links are just message board posts page, so I’m ignoring them.)

cite

cite

cite

cite

cite

Dean is on the attack against republicans. He’s a hate monger and isn’t doing his party any favors. If you think that he and Mehlman are alike then you are wrong. Dean’s rhetoric is uncalled for and lame. He’s doing the democrats a disservice as long as he continues as chairman of the party.

That’s fine with me. I expect it, and I’m OK with it. I was only getting defensive about it when people started in with the whole “shall never consider your opinion on politics to be worth anything anymore” and claiming that they’d follow me to other threads with it. But, ya, you’re right. I fucked up, admitted it, and knew I’d take shit for it.

Debaser, do you believe that the first-five-google-cites methodology is a sound methodology for determining whether an individual is a “bomb-thrower”? Do you believe that there are no other plausible explanations for the results that you got?

Hell, I agree with you about Howard Dean, but that ain’t the way to prove it.

Daniel

Good luck. He was perceived to be the electable one, remember? Isn’t that why all those Democrats supported him in the primaries?

Who was more moderate than him, this last time around. And who would be more moderate next time?

Here he is explicitly endorsing Santorum, hate speech and all:

http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t32521.html

He personally led the effort to put a fabricated, cut-and-paste frankenquote out in the “liberal media” as a purported statement from Joe Wilson:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200507210003

He said it was “outrageous” for those who agreed with Durbin’s torture statement to be offended at this utterly unfounded slander by Rove: “Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 in the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers…Let me put this in fairly simple terms: Al Jazeera now broadcasts to the region the words of Sen. Durbin, certainly putting America’s men and women in uniform in greater danger. No more needs to be said about the motives of liberals”.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1432074/posts
I will concede this: he doesn’t seem to make the blatant statements that Howard Dean has made a habit of lately.

However, he has no problem explicitly endorsing the statement that, for example, “liberals” want to see their fellow americans die; or participating in pure invention in order to discredit an opponent. It may not be bomb-throwing, but it’s at least land-mine-planting. IMO.

We had a big thread about this in GD not too very long ago. I would still very much like to see any evidence whatsoever that Dean has been harmful to the Democratic party.

Again, it seems to me that since Dean, Pelosi and Reid assumed leadership, things have been going very poorly for Bush. One could argue that Bush is simply shitting himself, but I’ve come to believe that coincidence is much less a factor in politics than most people think. As a Democrat, I’ve been more than happy with the way things have been going, speaking strictly politically, this year.

What the Democrats need to do is move away from the centrist, Republican lite thinking of the DLC and run more candidates who are straight shooters and are willing to note that the president is a son of a bitch.

No. I supplied that as well, with similar results. However, given that Pelosi and Hastert are both House leadership, that is the more on-point comparison. Particularly as the Journal rankings are in relation to other members of the person’s own chamber.

I wasn’t ignoring it. I never denied he’s a “bomb thrower”. You hadn’t said a word, though, about his counterpart. So, to imply that I’m someone “ignoring” a previous on-point statement is rather disingenuous, no?

I can use google, too. Amazingly enough. I’ve already addressed and partially (only partially) conceded this point. I notice, however, that you’ve sidestepped the issue of the party chair indicates more about the direction of a party than the actual elected officials who are setting policy and leading as such.

Not me, I voted for Dean. I still think he could have beaten Bush. He’s not afraid to fight dirty, the only way to win against Rove/Cheney.

If I were to criticize the Democrats in their choice of nominees, it would be stop nominating Senators!. A sitting Senator hasn’t been elected since Jack Kennedy, yet despite failure after failure, we keep nominating them. Look at who our successful nominees have been: Jimmy Carter, governor; Bill Clinton, governor. We have many Democrat governors that would make excellent candidates: Bill Richardson, governor of New Mexico; Mark Warner, governor of Virginia; or Tom Vilsack, governor of Iowa. All are eminently more electable than a US Senator. Managing a state is great experience for the Presidency, and you face less nitpicking over hundreds of votes that can be spun against you by the opposition.

Hey, why the hating on Barbara?

It’s OK to dis Barbara Bush. Even the president does:

Billings Gazette

More liberal or less liberal than Wellstone/Santorum?

After all, with the words you used to describe Wellstone…and they were in the Senate together, after all.

-Joe

So… if the mid-term elections produce a net gain for the GOP in the House and the Senate… what, if anything, will that do to your opinion?