[QUOTE=Terrifel]
Well, but that must have been just as true at the end of the First Age; and yet it was a powerful minion of Morgoth who ultimately proved the greatest force of evil in the two Ages to come. Since there are still powerful minions of Sauron running around unaccounted for at the beginning of the Fourth Age, it just seems natural to look first to their ranks for the next gathering threat.
…
[/QUOTE]
From the Encyclopedia of Arda’s online listing for “Fourth Age,” some interesting speculation:
*Although we have no records of the later Fourth, or any following Age, Tolkien makes a brief allusion to the future of Middle-earth in a letter written in 1958: “I imagine the gap [between the Fall of Barad-dûr and modern times] to be about 6000 years; that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S[econd] A[ge] and T[hird] A[ge]. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh.”
This note is especially interesting, as it gives some ground for bringing Tolkien’s dating system up to date. The fact that we are ‘at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh’ hints strongly that Tolkien saw some important historical event as marking the recent (or imminent) end of the Sixth Age. Each of the three Ages we know about ended with a great war and the fall of a tyrant, and Tolkien was writing just thirteen years after the end of the Second World War: could there be a connection?
While this is circumstantial at best, it does seem to hint that perhaps the Downfall of the Third Reich was to the Sixth Age what the Downfall of Barad-dûr was to the Third. If so, we can ‘reset’ the calendar in 1945, which would be the first year of the Seventh Age. The letter quoted above, then, would have been written in VII 14, which explains Tolkien’s reference to the change of Age, while the year 2000 would be VII 56.
It’s important to stress that there’s absolutely no direct evidence for any of this - it’s just harmless speculation. We do know, though, that Tolkien was fastidious in calculating his dating systems: it’s unlikely that he would have mentioned a change of Age if he didn’t have solid reasons for doing so.*
[QUOTE=Chronos]
Also the fell-beasts which the Nazgul rode, which may or may not be related to dragons and/or pterodons, and also the Watcher in the Water, which may or may not have been related to giant squid, and may or may not have been supernatural and thus not an “animal” at all. Wargs and the Giant Eagles are also not found (at least, not very easily) in the modern world, but they do have strong resemblences to modern creatures. The giant spiders, though, probably don’t count, since they’re strongly implied to be of fey ancestry (from Ungoliant via Shelob and possibly her sisters).
[/QUOTE]
Last year, the LOTR show (with props & costumes from the movies) came to Houston’s Natural Science Musuem. Truly excellent–I went twice.
Leaving the exhibit area, visitors found themselves in Paleontology Hall. Looking up, we could see a Quetzalcoatlus skeleton.
Hey, no argument from me. Personally, I suspect that the now-extinct reptilians (pterodons and dinosaurs and the like) were the original breeding stock from which both the dragons and the fell-beasts were corrupted. It’s just that Sauron wasn’t nearly as good at the corruption-and-distortion game as was his master, and he hasn’t had as long at it, so his beasties are still much closer to the original forms. There’s definitely some effects of breeding there, though: A Mark I pterodon wouldn’t be nearly large or strong enough to carry a rider.
[QUOTE=Chronos]
Hey, no argument from me. Personally, I suspect that the now-extinct reptilians (pterodons and dinosaurs and the like) were the original breeding stock from which both the dragons and the fell-beasts were corrupted. It’s just that Sauron wasn’t nearly as good at the corruption-and-distortion game as was his master, and he hasn’t had as long at it, so his beasties are still much closer to the original forms. There’s definitely some effects of breeding there, though: A Mark I pterodon wouldn’t be nearly large or strong enough to carry a rider.
[/QUOTE]
Quetzalcoatlus had a 13 meter wingspan and weighed 100kg. I figured the Ring Wraiths weighed nearly nothing except Crowns, Cloaks, Swords and Etc. Perhaps 10kg total. If that sounds reasonable than the Quetzalcoatlus could probably carry a Ring Wraith.
What? Are we now thinking that Tolkien knew about quetzalcouatlus, and placed the ringwraiths on Fell Beasts because of that? Did he put in the hobbits because he also know about homo floresiensis?
The Fell Beasts were made by Morgoth in mockery of Manwë’s Eagles, just as the Trolls were made in mockery of the Ents, and orcs/goblins in mockery of the elves.
[QUOTE=Lightray]
What? Are we now thinking that Tolkien knew about quetzalcouatlus, and placed the ringwraiths on Fell Beasts because of that? Did he put in the hobbits because he also know about homo floresiensis?
The Fell Beasts were made by Morgoth in mockery of Manwë’s Eagles, just as the Trolls were made in mockery of the Ents, and orcs/goblins in mockery of the elves.
[/QUOTE]
No, we are just off on a weird tangent. Beside Tolkien hinted that the Fell Beasts were derived from some forgotten ancient creature. I think he accepted the concept they could have been bred up from a population of Pteranodon like creatures. Then Science came along and found an actual fossil that was possibly large enough to be a foul beast.
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Quetzalcoatlus had a 13 meter wingspan and weighed 100kg. I figured the Ring Wraiths weighed nearly nothing except Crowns, Cloaks, Swords and Etc. Perhaps 10kg total. If that sounds reasonable than the Quetzalcoatlus could probably carry a Ring Wraith.
[/QUOTE]
It’s a simple question of weight ratios! … Listen. In order to maintain air-speed velocity, a fell beast needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?
[QUOTE=Humble Servant]
It’s a simple question of weight ratios! … Listen. In order to maintain air-speed velocity, a fell beast needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?
[/QUOTE]
Keep in mind that these were [del]African[/del] Harad pterodons.
Sure, maybe. The literature is woefully sparse on the subject the weight of an incorporeal worldly projection of a other-side entity. But didn’t a Winged Rider carry an orc across the River, to see to it that Saruman’s and his orcs didn’t get any funny ideas about the disposition of the Treasure? Orcs, especially those in positions of authority, weigh considerably more than 10 kg.
[QUOTE=Chronos]
Sure, maybe. The literature is woefully sparse on the subject the weight of an incorporeal worldly projection of a other-side entity. But didn’t a Winged Rider carry an orc across the River, to see to it that Saruman’s and his orcs didn’t get any funny ideas about the disposition of the Treasure? Orcs, especially those in positions of authority, weigh considerably more than 10 kg.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t recall that, I believe one of the Nazgul’s visited Saruman. I will search for the pertinent paragraph.
[QUOTE=Two Towers]
‘Nazgûl!’ he cried. ‘The messenger of Mordor. The storm is coming. The
Nazgûl have crossed the River! Ride, ride! Wait not for the dawn! Let not
the swift wait for the slow! Ride!’
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=TT]
I heard you shout"messenger of Mordor". What was it? What could it do at Isengard?’
‘It was a Black Rider on wings, a Nazgûl,’ said Gandalf. ‘It could have
taken you away to the Dark Tower.’
‘But it was not coming for me, was it?’ faltered Pippin. 'I mean, it
didn’t know that I had… ’
‘Of course not,’ said Gandalf. 'It is two hundred leagues or more in
straight flight from Barad-dûr to Orthanc, and even a Nazgûl would take a
few hours to fly between them. But Saruman certainly looked in the Stone
since the orc-raid, and more of his secret thought, I do not doubt, has been
read than he intended. A messenger has been sent to find out what he is
doing. And after what has happened tonight another will come, I think, and
swiftly.
[/QUOTE]
There are a few others, none make mention of an Orc or any other passenger.
I think on this one you are misremembering.
Just one quick injection of paleontology/science fiction into this Duel of Loremasters: Pteranodon was the genus of pterosaur thought to be largest until the advent of Quetzalcoatlus fossils. Pterodons are endemic to the mountains of Avalon (Tau Ceti II) in the Heorot series by Niven/Pournelle/Barnes, the mountains being the only area they are safe from the grendels.
What’s a plausible reason for the trolls in The Hobbit owning those three very nice Elf-made blades? I can’t think they got them off a regular Joe Pointyears that they killed. Any suggestions? I’m curious what you’ll come up with…
[QUOTE=Love Rhombus]
What’s a plausible reason for the trolls in The Hobbit owning those three very nice Elf-made blades? I can’t think they got them off a regular Joe Pointyears that they killed. Any suggestions? I’m curious what you’ll come up with…
[/QUOTE]
Gondolin got pretty well and thoroughly sacked by the forces of Morgoth waaaaay back in the first age, so all the loot passed into enemy hands, where I’m sure it made the rounds. Turgon the Noldorin king of Gondolin wielded Glamdring, but he fell to the enemy. It’s not known which of the residents of Gondolin originally wielded Orcrist, but it was undoubtably lost to the enemy at the same time.
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan]
Gondolin got pretty well and thoroughly sacked by the forces of Morgoth waaaaay back in the first age, so all the loot passed into enemy hands, where I’m sure it made the rounds. Turgon the Noldorin king of Gondolin wielded Glamdring, but he fell to the enemy. It’s not known which of the residents of Gondolin originally wielded Orcrist, but it was undoubtably lost to the enemy at the same time.
[/QUOTE]
Sounds reasonable. I might have liked it better if the Goblin-king had kept them, seeing as how they’re obviously good stuff, but I suppose if a troll decides he’s going to have something, there’s not much you can do otherwise…
Getting back to the fell beast tangent … the term “fell beast” irritates the hell out of me.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but the phrase “fell beast” is not parallel to “grizzly bear” or “tiger shark.” That is, fell is not part of the name – it’s an adjective describing beast. Tolkien was describing the beasts as dangerous and evil.
Using “fell beast” as if it were a species name makes as much sense as calling them “nasty critters.”
