[QUOTE=Clark K]
Using “fell beast” as if it were a species name makes as much sense as calling them “nasty critters.”
[/QUOTE]
In fairness, I don’t think Tolkien ever got around to calling them anything else, other than “winged steeds,” which is not really an improvement. It’s an interesting exception, as he’s generally so fastidious about names, and I think it’s likely an intentional contrast: “These things were so messed up, nobody even knew what the hell they were. But they were really messed up, all right.”
FWIW, I always envisioned them as black, nasty-looking pteranodons. As a result, I had a hard time accepting the giant flying eels in Peter Jackson’s movies.
Hijack: does anyone know if there’s a currently available recording of Tolkien reading from his own works? I used to have a tape of him reciting “Riddles in the Dark,” but it has long since passed to Obsolete Audio Media Valinor.
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan]
Gondolin got pretty well and thoroughly sacked by the forces of Morgoth waaaaay back in the first age, so all the loot passed into enemy hands, where I’m sure it made the rounds. Turgon the Noldorin king of Gondolin wielded Glamdring, but he fell to the enemy. It’s not known which of the residents of Gondolin originally wielded Orcrist, but it was undoubtably lost to the enemy at the same time.
[/QUOTE]
It is purest supposition that Orcrist was wielded by Ecthelion. JRRT wrote nothing (that I’m aware of) tying the two of them together. Given Gondolin’s large population, I expect other heroic elvish figures went unmentioned, including many other Noldor in exile. They could well have wielded Orcrist in their day.
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan]
It is purest supposition that Orcrist was wielded by Ecthelion. JRRT wrote nothing (that I’m aware of) tying the two of them together. Given Gondolin’s large population, I expect other heroic elvish figures went unmentioned, including many other Noldor in exile. They could well have wielded Orcrist in their day.
[/QUOTE]
Agreed, but Ecthalion was the great Captain of Gondolin and Orcrist and Glamring appeared to be brothers of the forge. I just think he was the likeliest. I wondered why the Wiki editor came to the same reasoning?
Only the Orcs considered Glamdring and Orcrist to be a pair, but from anyone else’s point of view, Glamdring would be far superior. Glamdring is the Foe-hammer, while Orcrist is the Goblin-cleaver. In other words, Orcrist was a specialized weapon for slaying orcs, while Glamdring would be equally effective against all foes. And while Ecthelion was a great hero, he’s most famous for fighting not orcs, but a Balrog.
In D&D terms, Glamdring would be a Longsword +5, while Orcrist would probably be a Longsword +2, +5 vs. Goblinoids.
[QUOTE=Chronos]
Only the Orcs considered Glamdring and Orcrist to be a pair, but from anyone else’s point of view, Glamdring would be far superior. Glamdring is the Foe-hammer, while Orcrist is the Goblin-cleaver. In other words, Orcrist was a specialized weapon for slaying orcs, while Glamdring would be equally effective against all foes. And while Ecthelion was a great hero, he’s most famous for fighting not orcs, but a Balrog.
In D&D terms, Glamdring would be a Longsword +5, while Orcrist would probably be a Longsword +2, +5 vs. Goblinoids.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Elrond]
They were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars. They must have
come from a dragon’s hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins
destroyed that city many ages ago. This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the
Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin; it was a famous blade.
This, Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once
wore. Keep them well!"
“Whence did the trolls get them, I wonder?” said Thorin looking at his
sword with new interest.
“I could not say,” said Elrond, “but one may guess that your trolls had
plundered other plunderers, or come on the remnants of old robberies in some
hold in the mountains of the North. I have heard that there are still
forgotten treasures of old to be found in the deserted caverns of the mines
of Moria, since the dwarf and goblin war.”
[/QUOTE]
Against my argument is the fact that Elrond would probably have known who Orcrist was wielder by. He may not have bothered mentioning Ecthalion however as Thorin would not have a clue who he was.
Oh, and I found the reference to a Nazgul carrying an orc:
From The Two Towers, book III, chapter 3, “The Uruk-Hai”:
It’s not quite explicit, but the implication is that the Nazgul carried Grishnakh across the river, and would be able to fly back with Grishnakh and both prisoners (Merry and Pippin).
[QUOTE=Chronos]
Oh, and I found the reference to a Nazgul carrying an orc:
From The Two Towers, book III, chapter 3, “The Uruk-Hai”:It’s not quite explicit, but the implication is that the Nazgul carried Grishnakh across the river, and would be able to fly back with Grishnakh and both prisoners (Merry and Pippin).
[/QUOTE]
Good digging, I could argue that it was only an ignorant orc comment and several other nitpicks, but I would rather concede the possibility.
[QUOTE=Love Rhombus]
Sounds reasonable. I might have liked it better if the Goblin-king had kept them, seeing as how they’re obviously good stuff, but I suppose if a troll decides he’s going to have something, there’s not much you can do otherwise…
[/QUOTE]
Well, he wouldn’t. They despised the very sight of the horrid things. Similarly when Merry and Pippin were picked up by the Uruk-hai, their Barrow-blades got tossed aside straight away, for the Orcs recognised them as Numenorean manufacture and jam-packed with anti-Darkness enchantments. That was reason enough to leave them lying.
Except for the special purpose: slay Morgul Lords; special purpose power: Dispel Morgul Lord’s “invulnerabillty to normal weapons” enchantment on a successful hit factor, the Barrow-blades were surely less in power than the weapons the Gondolindrim were knocking out. Good as the Numenoreans were, in Gondolin there were smiths who’d lived in the Blessed Realm and may even have personally taken lessons from Aule! If you’re a Goblin-King, you’d as soon stuff your throne cushion with plutonium as keep that kind of thing about the place.