With the Catholic church sexual abuse scandal and having to pay settlements
the Pope may had to loosen up a little to bring more $$$ back into the church .
There was talk of having to sell a church in my city , I am not sure if this happen or not. The Catholic church really isn’t in any shape to call people sinners when they coved up the sexual abuse scandal for years ! And it still going on.
Honestly, the pope is literally saying: “stop criticizing and start being loving with others”
I see it as a big F you to all those jerks who pretend being religious while judging others (and constantly watching Fox News, haha)
So do most Catholics.
Studies show that most Catholics (in the USA, Canada, & Europe, at least ) don;t foll the church teachings on these issues. And on abortion, it’s more than studies – medical documentation shows that Catholic girls/women get more abortions than other religions (and that’s just legal ones) – possibly because of the church stand on birth control.
But conservative Catholics are largely older ones. They aren’t contributing as much money any more, and aren’t producing new keds to be future church members. So they are the past of the church, not the future.
After all, younger, liberal Catholics can always just go to the local Episcopal/Anglican church, and find nothing different except the position on these issues (and women priests).
That is a false statement.
The obligation is for once a year, though.
Of course it works, excellently well in fact, if you use it. But then, all birth control methods only work if you use them. If someone intends to use a condom, but then forgets to bring one, or doesn’t bother to stop by the drugstore, or whatever, does that count as a failure of the condom method?
Pope Francis would make a good Episcopalian (that’s intended as a compliment). It’s not the believer’s job to judge or condemn anyone - God alone judges and there is no condemnation in Christ. Maybe divorce is a sin; maybe it’s not; IMO it probably is sometimes and isn’t other times. But all I need to worry about is: would it be a sin for me to divorce? Because that’s all I can control and God will judge me on what I can control.
Whenever someone wants to argue about whether or not “X” is a sin, I pull out Romans 14. The original context was: is it okay for Christians to eat meat that has been sacrificed to idols? But I’ve found it works for divorce, gay marriage, and a whole host of other issues of disagreement in the church. With my emphasis underlined:
Skammer, I agree with you 100% on Romans 14; I have felt that way for a long time. I only wish that Paul had always held himself to the height of insight he displays here!
:dubious:
I’m pretty sure Catholics are obliged to go to Mass every Sunday.
I am almost 100% (hehe) sure that the statistics for condom failure do include such things as incorrect use and failure to use 100% of the time. A quick cite speaking of the difference between typical use statistics and perfect use statistics.
The obligation for once a year, as per Nava, was for receiving Holy Communion. Many non-regular communicants would make the effort during Lent/Easter, to satisfy what was called, in my day way back when, your “Easter Duty.” I’m assuming that’s still the thing.
Do you believe that the church has any role in providing guidelines on what is sinful? What would you use to judge whether it is a sin for you to divorce?
Correct, as mentioned. The obligation to attend Mass is all Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation; the obligation to receive Communion is at least once a year during the season of Easter, with the assumption that you are a Catholic well-disposed to receive.
In my childhood church, a woman regularly offered prayers for “the gay community” - and not in a “mend your ways, sinners!” fashion for years with nobody saying anything. Granted this is was in one of the top 10 lefties cities in the US.
Are you under the impression that people in Africa would start using condoms if the Pope said it was cool? The top 5 HIV countries and the percentage of the adult 15-49 population who has HIV/is Catholic:
- Swaziland - 26.5% / 20%
- Botswana - 23.4% / 7%
- Lesotho - 23.3% / 45%
- South Africa - 19.1% / 7.1%
- Zimbabwe - 14.9% / 17%
Do you think the discrepancy can be explained by your claim? Education and access to condoms seems more likely, and two of these countries are liberal democracies with less superstitious people and still have high rates.
Meanwhile, although numbers vary depending on how you define it, a majority of American Catholics use some form of “artificial” birth control. Facts are more useful than wild claims.
Yes, absolutely the church has a role in providing guidance and instruction - but not judgment and condemnation. So the church can say “we understand that God’s design for marriage is one man and one woman. Here is our reasoning based on scripture and tradition of the church.” But if the church member comes back and says “based on my reading of scripture and spirit-led discernment, I disagree and believe that God blesses my same sex marriage,” then the response from the church (and other Christians) ought to be, “then we disagree, but grace and peace be upon you. Welcome to the Eucharistic table.”
I realize this is much closer to a Protestant model vs. Roman Catholic model of ecclesiology. But by recognizing that clergy need to respond to issues like divorced/remarried members on a case-by-case basis, he is inching toward this type of model. Which is a good thing.
For instance, to the statement “based on my reading of scripture and spirit-led discernment, I disagree and believe that God blesses my having sex with 8 yo altar boys”, the church should answer : “then we disagree, but grace and peace be upon you. Welcome to the Eucharistic table?”
Either you agree with this (the church doesn’t pass moral judgment on anything) or you want in fact the CC to be accepting only in cases you personnally approve of, IOW you want the church to replace its moral teachings by yours.
That’s a great argument, clairobscur, and if I had more time I would like to write a whole essay in response because it’s such a deep topic to get into when we’re talking about sin and grace and the mystery of the Eucharistic feast. I will try to respond more fully later, but here are my first thoughts in response to your objection:
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I did not say the church should not pass moral judgment on anything. I said it should not judge people. I’m okay with the church saying “divorce is a sin,” “gay marriage is a sin,” “gambling is a sin,” “abortion is a sin,” “eating meat sacrificed to idols is a sin.” I may agree or not; I might think it depends on the circumstances - but I do believe that’s an important function of the church. I *don’t[/] believe the church can pronounce someone condemned or beyond the reach of God’s grace for these or any other sins.
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The difference between a child sex abuser and a divorcee or partnered gay person or eating meat sacrificed to idols is an obvious component: a third party who is a victim of the abuser’s sin. The church (as it has hopefully learned by this point) must do what it can to protect innocent victims. Ongoing abuse or victimization or other criminal activity must be condemned and stopped. The person must not be condemned, but the church must not tolerate behavior that intentionally harms God’s children. Note that Romans 14 says “Accept the one whose faith is weak without quarrelling over disputed matters.” It would be hard to argue that the depravity of child abuse is much disputed, despite the church’s documented reluctance to address it until recently.
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I think I believe that with that in mind - yes, the abuser should be allowed to participate in communion, the primary sacrament of God’s loving grace. The abuser is a damaged person. Who is more needful of the grace of God than we are at our most wretched? The body of Christ, the Bread of Heaven. The blood of Christ, the Cup of Salvation.
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Participation in communion should in no way be seen as a tacit endorsement or tolerance of the abuser’s sin - just as it is not the church’s endorsement of my sin or yours. I would pray that the Holy Spirit would reveal the person’s sin to them - as I pray for myself.
My understanding is that you are not divorced as far as the catholic church is concerned. You guys are just really really really separated.
One of the areas where the pope seems to be breaking new ground and saying things that the church hasn’t been saying all along for the last few centuries is in the area of annulments. My understanding is that the goalposts are shifting.
I think that’s what they call a cafeteria catholic. You pick and choose stuff a la carte.