The second coming of Jesus Christ

Great Debates
41

Excuse me. I realized I quoted the wrong post by vanilla yesterday. This is the one I meant to quote.

I am still saddened by the prospect of a fellow Doper I’m quite fond of being “really happy” about the prospect of so many people suffering. Even at my most depressed, while I may have wanted to never see another sunrise, I have never wished that there never be another sunrise. Even at my angriest, I have never wished that the world would be destroyed, although I will admit to a high school in a certain small town. :rolleyes: There’s also a whole debate over what constitutes “harm”, especially if one believes one must be a Christian to avoid eternal torment yet puts forth one’s beliefs or espouses beliefs which drive others away from Christianity.

CJ

42

Quote:" it seems to me there’s going to be one hell of a mess to clean up (possibly in more ways that one!) and someone’s going to have to stick around to see it."

I’m there with you Seige man. Just imagine the peace and quite when 99 % of the religons ( bar the one that was right !) get proved to be bs.

Sure there will be some blood letting - mostly with the (slightly embarrased)followers taking it out the now unemployed religous leaders.
By the way - would it be too late to become affiliated with the “correct” faith AFTER the 2nd comming, or is that not allowed?
rant over.
sin

43

There is a Lot of horrid evil in this world.
I will be quite happy when it is judged!
Love and peace are okay but justice is necessary.

God gives people lots and lots of chances.
After a certain time, times up, its their fault!
Gee, how mean; Don’t think so.

44

No offense, Vanilla…much, but there are not “lots and lots” of chances alloted by anyone or anything except life. There is no “times up”. ‘Evil’ acts are instantly the fault of whoever enacts them.
So if you’re waiting for some magical being to ‘clean things up’, then you are watching a slow drowning and not lending a hand.
Just interested, but do you read the Left Behind books and do you believe them to be non-fiction?

45

I don’t see how “the Passion” could be a sign of the end times. We’ve been making movies from the bible for a few decades now. And doing plays about Jesus likely for centuries. This version was just more well made than most.

I think the most important thing to remember when trying to discern the end-times is that we are repeatedly warned that we will not be able to predict when it will occur. Coming like “a thief in the night” means that it will be completely unexpected. If we think things look bad now, then we don’t have any real sense of history, when at times the fate of the world seemed much more perilous.

46

beajerry, actually, you’re the wrong one… I hope you see the fecklessness of these arguments.

Whether you’re a Muslim, Christian, Transcendentalist, Atheist, etc., death is the deadline for many things.

Agreed, and Christians believe that everyone has their chances for, and is capable of recieving, redemption. In some cases, it’s defaulted.

Christians are saved for their good works. You have no idea what vanilla or any other Christian does to better the lives of others, including non-Christians. If you think rapture believers are sitting at home, watching the news, and praying for a plague of locusts to attack chronic masturbators, then you’d be wrong.

Judgement is reserved for God, not his children.

The OP asked about Christian topics, and so Christians attempted to answer. There’s no reason for you to challenge anyone’s faith in this thread, is there?

47

Care to explain what “jihad” you’re refering to?

Apart from that, I don’t notice a fiull scale war between christians and muslims.

I’m aknowledgeable on these issues, so I’m going to pass…

So, you’re telling that this movie has :

1)Polarized the world. Sorry, but I didn’t notice it. I read the newspaper today, and the main titles were about the 10th anniversary of the genocide in Rwanda and the situation in Irak. Not a word about the passion of Christ. Nobody even mentionned this movie in a conversation. I don’t see crowds gathering in favor of against it, either. Not any noticeable consequences on recent world events. hat are you talking about

2)Would be a test of faith, or something similar? Are you telling that it’s a god-send movie? A message from the heavens?
Methink you giving way too much importance to this movie.

I don’t understand most of what you wrote here. And I’m not convinced it entirely related to my limited english skills.

Anyway, I’m always amazed that people are always willing to believe that the end of times, the judgment, or whatver is going to happen soon. Remember, in the gospels, it’s written that not even jesus would know the day. So, how could think that anybody could guess it?

48

I don’t get why you would be particularily happy. If you’re believer and think you’re going to be saved, why would it be important whether there will be a rapture or not? In any case, you’re going to end up (or so you assume) in heavens. So, what’s the difference?
Besides, since, even if you are right, it most probably won’t happen during your lifetime (it didn’t hapen during the last 2000 years, so the chances that it would happen soon are rather slim. It could as wel happen 4000 years down from now), hence it won’t make the slightest difference to you. So why is it that important to you?

49

No one wants to suffer the tribulation and the iniquities it brings. To most theists, the world would be unlivable; and to children, it would be tragic. The longer the wait, the further the depravity.

You’re right. People rely on the fulfillment of what they consider prophecy. Interpretation differs, but that’s how many create a timeline.

50

Redemption from what? What “chances” are you referring to? How is it “defaulted?”

So why not just skip the tribulation and bring everyone to heaven?

Why put innocent children through such an irrational, sadistic and unjust ordeal at all? That’s not a God that I want anything to do with.

51

Every conscious moment of your life is a chance for redemption from your offenses. If, for instance, an infant is killed, they are given salvation.

As they are, many aren’t deserving of a life with God.

Why the flood? God spares the righteous and punishes the wicked; this is universal.

I’ll pray you have no say in the matter.

52

What “offenses?”

What constitutes “redemption?” How do you know?

Like who?

There was no flood, be even if I humor the story, God slaughtered untold thousands of children in that flood. Were they all “wicked?” Even the babies?

I’ll pray you have no say in the matter.
[/QUOTE]

Knock yourself out. Personally I want nothing to do with your God or your Heaven.

53

If this were a proselytizing cartoon, I’d hand you a bible. But since you’re leading me on, I’ll kindly ask you to respect my beliefs as I’ve respected yours. I’ve only answered questions, and you know the answers to yours.

Go and ask Him.

No, not the babies. But when our sins become universal, so will His judgement.

More punch and pie for me, brother.

54

This is a debate forum. If you’re not willing to defend your assertions, why make them?

I think I’ve asked reasonable questions and I haven’t been disrespectful. I don’t know the answers that you would give to my questions and that’s why I asked them. You’ve said that we all need to be “redeemed.” I just want to know what I did that requires redemption, how to acquire that redemption and how to be sure that I have acquired it.

Fine. Where is he?

No, not the babies. But when our sins become universal, so will His judgement.
[/quote]

What does it mean to say that our sins are “universal?” I don’t get that at all. Innocent babies is innocent babies, man. I don’t respect a god that offs people by the millions and I don’t buy any notion of “universal” sin.

Just don’t drink the Kool-Aid. :stuck_out_tongue:

55

I consider them fiction and I hate fiction.
I’ve read books that deal with the interpretation of Revelation, however and don’t consider them fiction.

IMHO, the Tribulation, God is saying “Enough!”

56

You’re right, but you’ll understand if I have feelings of animosity towards these arguments, won’t you?

Your sins require that you be redeemed. If you’ve committed no sin, then you need not redemption. To acquire that redemption, you can either suffer an unknown punishment for an undisclosed amount of time, or you can put your faith in God. To be with God, he must’ve been with you. And because of the nature of this world, you mustn’t be born of it, but born of God. You’ll be sure of your redemption when you receive His spirit.

Follow the yellow brick road. It ends differently than you’d think.

War, indifference, perversion, the ruination of that which is good and holy. These are universal sins.

All children are of God, and no one dies when they’re of Him.

But we get so thirsty breaking in our new tennis shoes. :frowning:

57

Animosity towards what arguments? All I’ve done is ask you what you believe.

What is a “sin?” Is it a sin simply not to believe in God or not to be a Christian? Is all “sin” equal? Is it just as bad to be an atheist or a pickpocket as to be a serial killer?

You say that like faith is a choice. I can’t have “faith” in something without evidence. Can you force yourself to believe in the Easter Bunny? What if I assured you that you would suffere “an unknown punishment” if you refused?

I have no idea what any of this means. Could you clarify. What does it mean to say that “God must’ve been with” me? What does it mean to say I “mustn’t be born of this world?” It’s kind of too late not be born in this world, isn’t it? And how is it my fault where I was born. What does being “born of God” mean? What does “receiving his spirit” mean? None of these answers are of any practical use, they’re just abstractions and they’re not even useful as abstractions. I honestly have no clear dea what you’re getting at.

Speaking of useless answers…

Let’s recap the history of this particular exchange.

You first said that “…many aren’t deserving of a life with God.”

I asked you who those people would be.

You said “Go ask him.”

I said, “fine, where is he?”

You say “follow the yellowbrick road.”

Is there a point in this anywhere. Whay are you making assertions if you don’t want to clarify them or defend them?

No they aren’t. They are individual sins. I am not responsible for any wars, any “perversion” or any ruination of “that which is good and holy” (whatever “holy” means). The children slaughtered by Yahweh in the flood were not responsible for any of those things. Please explain how the guilt of one individual can be transferred to innocent children.

What the hell does that mean? Does that mean it’s ok to kill children? Should that be a legal defense in court?

58

So once people grow up they’re not “of God” anymore?

59

The bottom line is, according to St. Paul, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and none of us are worthy of heaven, regardless of what words we mouth today, Sunday, or any other day.

I’ve got a pretty good track record as a Christian, although right now I’m far from loving my neighbor as myself, thus breaking the commandment Christ gave us. If I am destined for heaven, it’s not because of that track record, but because of Christ’s mercy and nothing else. For me to long for the Rapture, for the end of all things, to me is the height of arrogance because it assumes I have some merit others do not. I don’t.

I’ve been lucky enough to have had experiences with Christianity and that which I perceive as God to make it easy for me to be a Christian. Other haven’t been. An acquaintance of mine was raised by Fundamentalist parents who took great delight in telling her how much sorrow they’d be in in heaven as they watched her suffer in hell for her sins. From what I understand of Rapture theology and those who believe in it, she will suffer an eternity in hell while her family who mouthed appropriate things about Christ while showing cruelty to their daughter and turning her against Christianity will go straight to heaven. I’m with Diogenes. I refuse to worship such a god, regardless of what name he goes by because a god who would inflict such suffering is closer to a demon.

Vanilla, you may want to rethink associating with me. You see, if a rogue Episcopalian doesn’t drag you down from your planned Rapturous ascencsion, no doubt my friends will, even though that’s not our intent. I’m a grubby, common sinner, no different from the rest of us, and if my place in heaven is assured, it is because of nothing I can do or will do, but on ly, by my theology, because Christ took the trouble to find out what it was to be a grubby, common human being.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to get my feet washed. At least I suppose I won’t be entirely grubby, only from the ankles up!

CJ
(Oh, by the way, sinical brit, no offense taken, but I’m a grubby, common, female sinner, and at least half culturally British to boot! :wink:

60

I think the Christians are finding the 1960s.

DON’T TAKE THE BROWN ACID, Necro. Hope it isn’t too late. O_o

I suppose I should say something on topic. Hm. Oh well.