Seige.
Of course I want to hang around with you!
I am also a grubby sinner saved by grace.
Looking forward to the rapture just means I long for when Jesus returns to take me to Heaven where there is no more sorrow, etc.
Of course, this could also be made to mean I would wish to die soon too for the same to happen.
I don’t.
I’m not just speaking about you; I’m speaking about the other comments in this thread.
That’s fine mind you; the cards are stacked against me, aren’t they? But yes, when I try to answer an honest question about the second coming (the OP), and I have to try to validate my faith from those who take the opportunity to try to nullify it, it hurts me. If you really want to invalidate the beliefs of others, then start another thread on the topic. This is not why I attempted to answer the original poster. You see, I’m not the public relations man for the evangelical Christian community. If you have questions for theists, I suggest you read their scripture and ask one of their leaders (priests, clerics, rabbis, etc.) for any further reading. I agree with the scripture I read, and so I gave it to you. If you don’t agree with it, then fine. God bless you.
Having faith in God and receiving His spirit brings you to God and you with Him.
When you have an understanding of God, and you place your faith in Him, your spirit will be reborn. That will make you born of Him, and not of this Earth. If your life is free of sin, as life on this Earth usually isn’t, then you need not God’s mercy.
When what I said above comes to pass, you will receive His presence and influence. The transformation is internal; only you and He will know when it happens.
The sins of the many affect us all, as they affect God. We, all of us, are his creation. And one day, as vanilla said, he’ll say, “Enough”.
But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. 2 Corinthians 4:7-9
When you’re of God, as all innocent children are, you never truly die. Your body may be destroyed, but your spirit is set free. If anyone has the right to take your body away, it’s Him, your creator, who can promise you no further suffering and a new life.
Homebrew, when people know of evil, and they commit those evils, they’re no longer innocent.
Faith isn’t a choice, it’s a gift. I have knowledge of God, and I have faith in Him. My proof is my epiphany, as all faith in God is. It’s personal, not universal, and so all I can do is ask that if someone wants proof for themselves, that they read, try to understand, and to the best of their abilities, follow the scripture.
My beliefs stem from my own understanding of God; I didn’t ask any human to give me proof. I can’t, as anyone can’t, rely on humans for proof or understanding of a higher power. Most religions, as mine is, aren’t monolithic, so why ask one follower of one particular sect to convince you of their own understanding of God’s existance or right to judgement? If you’re looking for an answer, only you can find it. I don’t claim to have the final answer; the final answer isn’t mine to have.
And with that, I’m going to end this discussion with you.
No go, lady. My understanding of the Rapture is that sorrow is an essential part of it. I was thinking about this during last night’s Maundy Thursday services, trying to work out why Rapture theology makes me so angry. I am a servant of God, obligated to serve Him and my fellow man. As Christ served the lowest and least, so am I. Not everyone will be assumed into heaven and there are going to be a lot of people left behind, to coin a phrase. Here’s what sets me kicking and screaming. The aftermath or the lead up to the Rapture is going to involve a lot of pain, ugliness, cruelty, stench, brutality, and, in general, everything I abhor and don’t want to associate with. As I said, I am obligated by Christ to serve my fellow man, especially the outcast and unrighteous because I’ve been branded as one myself. In other words, while you and others have Assumed yourselves into heaven via the Rapture and are up there playing frisbee with your halos or whatever it is angels do ;), I am going to be remaining here on earth, trying not to weep, throw up, or both, and trying like mad to clean up the mess. :sigh!: I wonder if the Wiccans will lend me a broom! :rolleyes:
I spent most of my teenage years as one who was cast out, called worthless, sinful, unworthy, and pretty much every foul name in the book or the Book. I know what it was like to stand longingly outside looking at the in crowd, wishing I could join them and not being able to or allowed to. I remember what it was like when someone who said a kind word to me risked becoming an outcast like I was. I may not be an outsider anymore, but I remain obligated to serve those who were. I’m not part of the in crowd who are convinced they’ll have a whale (or fatted calf) of a welcome waiting for them in heaven. I am a servant of that which I call God. As long as anyone is not welcome at the party for whatever reason, I have no place there. There’s still work to do down here. So if the Rapture happens in the appalling form you assume it will, have a good time up in heaven, whatever form it assumes for you, and compliment J. S. Bach for me if you see him. I’ll be down here with the godless, the pagans, and the other folk Christians deemed unworthy, including the Samaritans, if there still are any (Palestinians?) doing what I must. You have your obligations to God; I have mine.
Your humble servant,
CJ
Well…It doesn’t answer my question, since presumably if there was no rapture, there would be no tribulation, either, since both are part of the same set of belief, which isn’t bought by most christians.
So, to reformulate, why would you (or her, since my question was originally adressed to ** vanilla ** ) be particularily happy if you/she were right about the whole thing (rapture and tribulation)? That’s assuming of course that you’re still right concerning christiannity being the real thing, you’d be saved, etc…Just no rapture/tribulation.
Seige - it was more of a " dont tak the brown acid, man " man . ( I’m a geordie and most sentances end in “man” !).
Anywho - i find all the crypic language relating to the specifics of the 2nd comming a bit frustrating. I thank posters for trying to describe thier beliefs, and i respect thier opinions, but i agree with Diogenes:
When asked to claify a frankly baffling statement like
"To be with God, he must’ve been with you. And because of the nature of this world, you mustn’t be born of it, but born of God. You’ll be sure of your redemption when you receive His spirit. "
You get “Having faith in God and receiving His spirit brings you to God and you with Him.”
Its like juggling jelly. It seems as though its a bit of a closed club. How can you make me / help me believe in these many fantastic events, predictions and stories, when the language used doesnt actually say anything? I have noticed this in quite a few threads dealing with the subject. Surely, the second comming is the pivot, the crux, the foundation of many religions, yet no-one can hold a good debate about it without resorting to wierd laguage as desribed above. It didnt make a ha’penny of sense at school and it doesnt now. Why? Because the arguments are the same, the language is inpenatrable and the flaws in the plan are never answered.
Seige’s previous post seems to be the most moraly sound view of the second comming. Isnt that what its all about? There are lots of people who cant ( or wont ) just tick all the boxes on the application form, but who continuously strive to help thier fellow (hu)man. According to the rules they are fct because they wont sign up to something that they have problems with. Maybe these are the people who should really inherit the earth. They have integrity.
I must point out that i do not consider myself to be one of these people. The only logic i can find in any of this is that humans NEED to believe there is something after death. They also need to exert control over other humans. What better way than to merge the two and use the treat of not getting to a “better” place as a means to make people behave. But thats for another thread.
Appologies about the rant / hijack, but im off on holiday for 10 days and am trying to get my thoughts down before i go !
Sin
I’m fairly certain I’ve never done anything truly evil. Okay, I may have been rude a few times and I’m not always easy-going; but never evil. Am I okay even though I don’t believe? (Lib can’t answer, I already know what he’d say.)
Do you have proof that shows most Christians don’t believe in the doctrine? Granted, I can see how they wouldn’t believe in the rapture, but the tribulation is an important part of the belief in an anti-christ rising to power.
There are two tribulation doctrines. Pre-Tribulation and Post. The first is what vanilla was talking about. Post Tribulation states that everyone on earth will suffer the tribulation, regardless of faith. Both sides have valid arguments.
Sorry about answering for her, but we both believe in tribulation, and so I found it prudent.
I wouldn’t be happy if the tribulation occured, but then again, I’m not a father. This is why I brought up children earlier. It seems to me that only parents are satisfied with pre-Tribulation doctrine (as opposed to fightened, angry, saddened, etc.) As with most tragedies, parents are going to look out for their family above all others. And so, given this, it might explain why anyone could be “happy” about it.
As for pre-trib rapture or post-trib, I don’t care.
As everyone who studies it does.
Let’s clarify. Diogenes wanted my answers, and so I gave it to him. I don’t see the scripture plainly, I see it poetically. If you want a modern translation of scripture, then go here. I only speak poetically about it in public because I assume everyone knows the golden rule. Faith in Christ will grant you God’s mercy.
No, the second coming isn’t very important. The foundation of Christianity is Christ’s resurrection, and the scripture is very clear on that. The second coming signifies the shit-hits-the-fan period of the world. To an evangelist, that means the end of their missionary work on Earth, and then we get to the tribulation…but I’ve gone over that already.
Absolutely! Seige’s post is the Christian response. However, to an evangelical, the tribulation and rapture is a matter of fact, not a matter of choice. It’s preached by our pastors, and it’s preached often. It’s part of the program, so to speak.
You’re spot on when you say the scripture is dim, but only in regards to this topic. And to the evangelical, it’s supposed to be dim. After all, how else would John have written about these modern happenings? (Not looking for an argument, just giving a typical response)
As for your other comments, I ask that you read the scripture if you want to understand. I know atheistic apprehension very well. Coming from a communistic background, I’m familiar with anti-theism to boot. To reiterate, I only began to believe and understand through my own studies. Look at all the sects. Not everyone agrees with how or what we should preach, yet we we all studied from the same books.
You already know the typical Christian response; It’s been gone over in this thread. However, if you’re asking me, all good people are - regardless of faith (or lack of it), sexual orientation, etc. I’ve got a “false” beliefs thread somewhere here, but I can’t find it at the moment. Apparently, it’s not an uncommon belief.
Seige, as I understand it, the people who are looking forward to the rapture do so becasue they long to be with the Lord, who wouldn’t?
God sends judgment a the end because it is deserved.
Would you that we do away with all the courts, and let every criminal never have jail time?
And those who are left behind(many will accept Christ then, but those who don’t-) will be killing all the christians they can find.
I suppose they don’t deserve judgment?
Your scenario where you stay behind and help while others are happy in Heaven makes it sound like you are claiming you care more, and that isn’t true.
Do you think it is?
and I wouldn’t be surprised to find Homebrew up there.
Necro - " Faith in Christ will grant you God’s mercy" - youre doing it again 
!
But thanks for the explanations. Have i missed something or was the link just an online bible ? Can you advise me on which version has the least cryptic and the most modern language ?
I think i’m getting out of my depth here … so will let you guys get back to thingy and whatchamacallit.
sin
The link was just an online bible. The version I linked to (New International Version - NIV) is the least cryptic, and presumably, the most accurate translation. If you’re serious about studying scripture though, you should probably go to the bookstore and get something you can carry around with you. Otherwise, it’ll probably just feel like a chore and not a growing experience.
Just some comments on the whole Rapture/Tribulation thing (from a former pre-Tribber now a maybe-postTribber/maybe-70ADTribber)-
a PreTrib position CAN be God gives the “World” what it wants, a world without Him & w/o Christians, the human-caused disasters are just God leaving humans totally alone, the Divine-caused disasters could well be aimed specifically at those dedicated against Him (I don’t believe any of it but it could be an explanation!)
Ways that other Christians have of regarding the Tribulation- Preterist: the Tribulation refers to the Sanhedrin/Roman persecution of Christians & the 70 AD
Siege of Jerusalem; Historist- the continual persecution of Biblical Christians, the arise of persecuting pseudo- & anti-C’tian authorities, & the collapse of psuedo & anti-C’tian powers throughout history; Symbolic- in big & small ways, we all go through crap from the World, the Flesh & the Devil. We all have Tribulations to go through, Beast/Whore systems that try either to oppress us or seduce us, and Christ to enable us to overcome them.
On the other hand- I will also add, when God judges a corrupt society, sometimes innocents get caught in that crossfire. For some reason, God doesn’t rapture out the innocent (note that a lot of modern Rapture scenarios do included children)- that is part of the burden those who survive the Judgement must live with & is only explained by the fact that they are now with an ultimately fair & caring God.
And before anyone else can get to it (Diogenes G)- I’ll ask myself…
cite?
But, in looking forward to being with the Lord in the specific way implied by the Rapture, they do so at the expense of the suffering of billions of people who are not Christian. How can that be moral? To put it in more worldly terms, it’s like saying, “Here. You will win the lottery, but in order for that to happen, a small town will be tortured and murdered.” If that’s the price, you can keep the winnings, whatever form they take. I’m not saying I care more. I am simply saying what I, one rather odd-ball human being, am obligated to do and what I can and cannot believe. Some are called to do wonderful work for the poor and starving in India; some are called to raise children in proper Christian teachings; and then there’s me, apparently called to cause trouble on the internet. :rolleyes:
Do I long to be with God? I’m a hardcore Christian with suicidal tendencies. What do you think? I don’t want to be with God at the price Rapture theology entails, though. That’s too high for a cheapskate like me.
Two of the kindest, most moral, most decent human beings I know are Wiccans. What’s worse, since they were Fundamentalist Christians once, many would say they rejected Christ. I haven’t heard of anyone who believes in the Rapture who’d say they’ll be taken up in it, although vanilla might be an exception. These people have healed me and made me a better person and, specifically, a better Christian. If you tell me God condemns them to the kind of suffering the Rapture entails while sparing some devout Christians we’ve seen around here, then that’s a god I will not worship.
Vanilla, you spoke of judgement. Are you so sure you are on the side of righteousness? I’m not. Among other things, again, according to Rapture theology, I’m probably in deep trouble for consorting with Witches, especially since I don’t repent of it. I strive every day to be a good Christian, and every day, I fail. Most of those I love most aren’t good Christians, as those who believe in the Rapture define it. If I didn’t think they were good people, I would not love them. Would you like to see my own father or brother tortured? That’s what the rapture entails. I don’t!
By the way, I know my own Anglican Church doesn’t believe in the Rapture as an institution, and I’m reasonably sure that’s true of Roman Catholicism and mainstream Protestant denominations such as Prebyterians, Methodists, etc., nor does Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Necro Romancer, is that close enough to a majority for you or shall I look for more? For the record, my parents, who were born and raised in England, never even heard of the Rapture until they moved to the states and their daughter got into the habit of arguing religion on-line.
CJ
If you’re going to get offended by factual statements (there was no global flood. That’s a fact, not an opinion) then you’re probably in the wrong forum. That goes double if you’re going to get bent out of shape because someone like beajerry simply expresses a difference of opinion with you.
We’re just trying to get you to clarify what your beliefs are and how you arrived at them. This is a debate forum. Your assertions are going to be subjected to logical analysis. That’s how it works here. Don’t take it so personally. If you don’t want do defend your assertions don’t make them.
“Read the Bible” is not a particualrly effective response, by the way. You’d be surprised how well informed SDMB non-theists are about the Bible. We also know that the Bible is entirely too subject to personal and denominational interpretation for “read the Bible” to be useful in telling us what you think. Not only that but you’re talking about doctrines in this thread that are not in the Bible. The “Rapture” does not exist in Scripture. Nor does the Evangelical fantasy of a futuristic “Anti-Christ” of the endtimes.
What is “God” and what is his “Spirit?” Why should I have faith with no evidence?
You’re just piling gobbeldygook on top of gobbeldygook.
See what I mean. You’re using abstract terminology which means nothing to anyone else. What is being “reborn?” What is “sin?” Why do I need “mercy?” What did I do.
How will I know I’m not just imagining it? How will I know there really is a “He” and not just me?
What do you say to those who claim to have been “transformed” by other Gods? What about people who have been transformed by Vishnu or Allah or Buddha or the Earth Mother? How do you know your experience means anything more than theirs?
You didn’t answer the question. How does guilt transfer from one person to another?
And could you please explain what “sin” is? What do**I* do that’s so terrible?
Why did God create “sin” in the first place if he hates it so much?
What does “of God” mean? What is a “spirit?” How do you know that children have them? How do you know they “don’t truly die?”
What “evils?” I haven’t committed any “evils.”
Now wait a second. If faith is necessary for salvation and faith is a “gift” from God, then you’re saying that salvation is purely a random, capricious, arbitrary act of God. Free will is meaningless. Being a good person is meaningless. If you don’t get this “epiphany” then you’re screwed.
Even more reason to despise this “God” you speak of.
Tautology. You’re saying that you believe it because you believe it.
Dude, if I met you at a cocktail party and you told me you were an evangelical Christian, I would be polite, I would chat, I would never dream of asking you to justify your beliefs.
But you posted in a debate forum. That generally indicates that you are willing to debate, to explain yourself, to defend your own opinions. If you don’t want to debate then why are you posting here?
Yoiu need to do some research. Your “Rapture” theology is a minority view in Christianity. It is not a part of Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican and number of other traditions. Just the denominations I listed comprise something like 70% of all Christians so you need to re-examine what constitutes “Christian belief.”
Emphasis mine.
I’ve bantered with Presbyterians, Methodists, and Mennonites about the anti-christ and the judgement. I haven’t had the pleasure of meeting any Eastern Orthodox Christians but I know they believe in the anti-christ as well.
Diogenes, you’re asking a lot of questions that I’ve already answered. You not accepting them is your own matter. If you think you missed anything, read my posts again. I will address your other questions and comments.
I would say what the Muslim would say. “Your God and our God is the same.”
I was answering Homebrew’s question about accountability, not accusing you, or anyone specifically, of doing evil. Given that you know my stance on salvation, why would you assert that? There’s a reason I called you brother.
I’ve given you the official evangelical stance, and I’ve given you my stance. You seem to have missed the latter - or chosen not to aknowledge it. As I said before, I’m not the public relations man for the evangelical Christian community. I can give you the official stance, and I can clarify it to a point, but I will not argue the validity of believing in a God.
A Lutheran might agree, but as I’ve said before, anyone is capable of receiving this gift if they put forth the time and effort.
I imagine we’d talk about HBO.
To answer the OP. I’m willing to debate anything I post - as long as it relates to the OP’s questions. Attempts to invalidate my faith have nothing to do with that.
Jesus said: “I judge no man.”
I think your judgement exceeds God’s.
God’s love is unconditional, He loves all His children equally and holds them safe and secure for all eternity. This should be good news to you.
No one will burn eternally, or be tortured, or receive any other gruesome punishment made up by those who don’t understand or know God.
If you believe the Bible supports your position, it doesn’t.
Learn to love your fellow man, including those who you consider enemies, and you will come closer to understanding what Jesus was talking about.
Love
right…
all the verses in the bible about hell being eternal and people will be there; that was just a typo
Sure, depending on how willing you are to take into account possible translation problems, the effect of prior Jewish and Hellenistic beliefs on the authors of the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament, the importance of realizing that the Epistles are just that, letters to a particular congregation at a particular time dealing with a particular matter and that furthermore Paul was expecting the end of the world within the next 50 or 100 years, that Revelation is apocylaptic literature and not an end of the world prediction, and that a Left Behind-style Rapture is a modern American heresy. I much prefer either a Jewish interpretation that the righteous eventually join God while the dead remain dead or even that hell is best described as being seperated from God without it being an actual physical place.
But hey, if a literal, 100% inerrant view of the Bible while ignoring history, literature, language, science, and so on is your cup of tea, fine. Just don’t be surprised when I dismiss those views and arguments based on them out of hand.
This is why I kill as many babies as I possibly can. I know I’m going to hell for it, but I figure if I can save so many souls by sacrificing one, it’s kinda like my duty, in a way.
I admit, I do enjoy it, but that’s really secondary.
All of the words translated as “Hell” mean something else in their original languages. Sheol, Hades or Gehenna – none of which are equivalent to the Christian concept of eternal Hell. Judaism doesn’t have a Hell even now.