the sexualization & objectification of young teens

Personally I wouldn’t let a 10 year old who has to be around drunken old men dress in anything less that plate mail & hand axe, or at least a Chairman Mao coverall.

I don’t think that the WWODMD is a great criteria on which to base fashion.

I remember people saying this stuff about designer jeans when I was at that age. Too darn tight & sexy, they said. Has the world gone to hell? Or has it merely found ways to profit off our variant and changing styles.

JuanitaTech FWIW, every woman I know who wears thongs says they do so becuase of the panty lines issue. Make of this what you will.

You are all so prude and paranoid that you don’t see the forest for all the trees. Read my previous post again.

Whatever you and the soccer mom might have thought she didn’t intend it the way you seem to think ditso! Her statement, if any at all was towards herself and her peers, that you took it that way and that this troubles you is rather only a problem if it would be so that you would feel a need to act on it.

Well let’s disregard that 19 isn’t exactly ripe maturity and adulthood. Most people have only been deflowered since a year or so at your age and I would say that sexually speaking you are still wavering on the fence between adulthood and childhood (I know you don’t want to hear that, but hey fuck me backwards if I wouldn’t know what I am talking some thousands of times later and some 19 years of experience down that line). Anyway… what’s the problem here? Is it your guilt over being turned on by prepubescent girls or the young teenager’s need to go thru the motions of growing up while you stand back and just finish growing up?

That is ridiculous. Pedophilias already engage in such things thongs or no thongs and as far as I would surmise they will forever, no matter what the form of children’s underwear takes. Again, a couple of sickos should not be allowed to destroy the coming of age of the majority.

Exactly! What the hell is any ten year old girl dressed in any whatever fucking way doing alone in the company of a bunch of drunken old men???

Does anyone here even remotely remember what it was like to be teenager, including Checkmate who still is one???

Sparc

Humans live for about 70 years (many of us will live even longer). Why can’t we let kids be kids for as long as they can? Why this push to have them grow up and be adults once they hit puberty?

While my kids live under my roof, they will NOT be wearing provocative clothing. I’m not going to dress them in neck-to-knee bathers or anything like that, but my daughter will not be strutting around town showing off her bum.

Yes, I’m a tyrant. Deal with it.

Mother and daughter matching outfits used to be quite the rage, and at the time, I don’t recall people getting all huffy about the objectification of the youth involved.

On the very definate Other Hand, who didn’t get creeped out watching JonBonet Ramsey prancing and stripping on stage?

Is this emotionally healthy for immature humans? IMHO no. Yes, they have sexual feelings, but the very, very last thing they need to do is to add to their allure for those who would do them harm.

we had a long thread a while back about some parent w/a young daughter who had her modeling skimpy outfits on a web site (which charged for views), and allowed viewers/commenters to post their messages to her, send her outfits which she would model.

and, it was my position that by doing this sort of thing, one has allowed a line to be crossed, that makes them more easily targeted by some one who would molest them.

There’s a stage of immodesty that most kids go through, however, by the time they’re in grade school, they’re most decidedly not generally ‘into’ showing off their undies.

and Sparc check out the post above re: sizes - the sizes mentioned are not generally worn by teens, but by 7 - 10 year olds.

wring if you are indeed as I understand talking about children of 10 and younger your points are in point. IMHO the examples you mention are cases were I would say that parents are out of line in much the same way the baseball or tennis parent who will go to fisticuffs over their kids ‘right’ to win a match are. An eight or nine year old girl gives as much a shit about her underwear cut as the most hardcore nerd gives about the cleanliness of his same. Let’s be honest, at that age it’s a parental choice.

What I do not understand is the idea that children do not have a sexual identity. This speaks against every single known fact of human psychology. To say that we should let kids be kids per definition involves letting them be what they are, and that includes an immature sexuality. To get involved in that on the other hand is downright destructive, both if we inhibit it and if we abuse it. As adults we have the extremely difficult responsibility of letting grow what must while creating a safe enough environment for that growth to be constructive. In as far as I am concerned that equates with being informative and candid while trusting the child, and being wary of the adults that might abuse without letting that wariness impinge lesser freedoms on the children to explore their imminent adulthood in an informed environment.

But if we are only talking of pre-teenagers in this thread… it’s just wrong with a thong. Thongs, suits, tuxedos, ball dresses, pageants and what-nots for seven year olds is just denying their right to be kids. I just thought the thread title and OP indicated something else…

Sparc

The younger set is what the aim of A & F is (as evidenced by the sizes of the clothing). The ‘young teen’ set. well, there you have a whole different set of issues

I’m still leery of all of it (mainly 'cause I do remember those years quite well). I’ve got an 18 year old son, so I’ve been watching this quite a bit. And while those 12 - 16 year olds have sexual feelings and so on, they need a chance to develop, and mature and ‘grow into’ all of the ramifications of same.

Having those feelings and acting on them are two different things

Mr. Miskatonic wrote:

If you can afford it, you might want to consider Full Plate Armor, a shield, and a longsword. Plate Armor doesn’t reduce your base movement rate as much as plate mail does, plus her Armor Class will be 3 steps better; and a longsword does 1d8 damage to small or medium-sized opponents while a hand axe only does 1d6.

Of course, she’d be best served by full plate armor +5 and a longsword +3, vorpal weapon, but the vorpal sword alone will set you back a good 50,000 gold pieces.

I dunno, Tracer, seems to me that from botha comfort and a cost-effectiviness standpoin, the elegant solution would be a Ring of Protection vs. Leches.

wring again you are point in point with what I am saying, although we might disagree with the level of freedom that we dare afford our youngsters.

Independent of the level of freedom we grant, I think there is a healthy conflict in the parental desire to keep the child a child as longs as possible and the inevitable strife for acceptance as an adult as soon as possible by the teenager.

If A&F’s line is only or predominantly directed to pre-teenagers this whole thread is moot and any of my posts should be viewed as irrelevant to the subject of A&F. In any case I stand by them as relevant to teenage sexual development.

Sparc

This is a thread I can especially relate to. I’m a 15 year old guy who has a 13 year old girl friend, and coincidentally, she is all about wearing thongs, tank tops, mini skirts and make up. If her clothing isn’t of the revealing sort, she’s dressed in something that’s attention getting: flashy dresses, punk jewelry, witty shirts. The only thing her parents aren’t okay with is the thongs, and she has to hide them and wash them separately. It’s probably worth it for her and other girls because guys my age love girls our age in thongs, and granny panties are a definite turn off.

I’m aware I’m young, and I’m aware she’s even younger, but this doesn’t mean we’re immature by any stretch (Hell, how could someone who joined the fight in eradicating world ignorance be immature?). To the contrary, we are both capable, responsible and informed. Actually, the conservative notions that adults hold about teenage sexuality is detrimental to us. It’s difficult buying and hiding contraception, certain activities have to be hurried thus increasing the risk, and we are both unable to get tested (lack of past experiences considered, there is a very little risk, but we’re just trying to being careful).

If any of you are surprised to hear this, I’d recommend losing the naivete and sanctimony. Once a person hits post-puberty, they’re fair game on the sexual hunting grounds. While teens generally don’t start right away, It’s safe to say a decent percentage of high school freshman and sophomore’s (me) are behaving a little less chastely than our parents would prefer. When you get into the highest ranks of the high school hierarchy, virginity is a vice better left in the closet (I suspect a great deal of older students still are virgins, though).

I agree entirely with Kyomara (see his/her first post) and I think teenage sexuality is healthy, if the teenagers are knowledgeable about the subject (school’s do a good job in that respect) and the parents are available to give guidance and intervene when necessary.

It goes without saying that If stores, like A & F, are aiming sexually exciting clothes at kids who are pre-pubescent, that’s wrong, and I think you parents should start boycotting before some body comes up with the idea of ‘Thong Diapers’.

This is a thread I can especially relate to. I’m a 15 year old guy who has a 13 year old girl friend, and coincidentally, she is all about wearing thongs, tank tops, mini skirts and make up. If her clothing isn’t of the revealing sort, she’s dressed in something that’s attention getting: flashy dresses, punk jewelry, witty shirts. The only thing her parents aren’t okay with is the thongs, and she has to hide them and wash them separately. It’s probably worth it for her and other girls because guys my age love girls our age in thongs, and granny panties are a definite turn off.

I’m aware I’m young, and I’m aware she’s even younger, but this doesn’t mean we’re immature by any stretch (Hell, how could someone who joined the fight in eradicating world ignorance be immature?). To the contrary, we are both capable, responsible and informed. Actually, the conservative notions that adults hold about teenage sexuality is detrimental to us. It’s difficult buying and hiding contraception, certain activities have to be hurried thus increasing the risk, and we are both unable to get tested (lack of past experiences considered, there is a very little risk, but we’re just trying to being careful).

If any of you are surprised to hear this, I’d recommend losing the naivete and sanctimony. Once a person hits post-puberty, they’re fair game on the sexual hunting grounds. While teens generally don’t start right away, It’s safe to say a decent percentage of high school freshman and sophomore’s (me) are behaving a little less chastely than our parents would prefer. When you get into the highest ranks of the high school hierarchy, virginity is a vice better left in the closet (I suspect a great deal of older students still are virgins, though).

I agree entirely with Kyomara (see his/her first post) and I think teenage sexuality is healthy, if the teenagers are knowledgeable about the subject (school’s do a good job in that respect) and the parents are available to give guidance and intervene when necessary.

It goes without saying that If stores, like A & F, are aiming sexually exciting clothes at kids who are pre-pubescent, that’s wrong, and I think you parents should start boycotting before somebody comes up with the idea of ‘Thong Diapers’.

Nobody refuses to let kids be kids, nor push to have them grow up. They are the ones who want to wear the stuff.

Stop that…

Stop that I say.

      Stop that *right* now!

Don’t make me wag my finger at you!

Oh, sure. Make the 10 year old girl try to swing a 3’ iron blade with one hand.

:stuck_out_tongue:

What you or I or anyone else finds “acceptable” is irrelevant. However, I think you are confusing “sex” and “sexual.” Just because a young person is becoming aware of their body and the new experience of sexual attraction (and trying their hand at dressing the part) doesn’t mean that they are rushing off to have sex.

I lost my virginity at the age of 20. Was I “equipped to deal with the emotional and physical consequences” of a sexual relationship? Not a chance. I’m still not equipped. I know few people who ever will be equipped.

I still hold that these are products purchased by kids to impress themselves and other kids. No one is “sexualizing” them; they are becoming aware of their own sexuality. No one is “forcing them to grow up too fast;” they are growing up naturally at their own pace, and they want thongs. What’s the big deal?

Good point Kyomara. I guess it’s just the morally conservative side of me coming out to play the past few days. I also was twenty when I lost my virginity, and no, I guess I wasn’t some sort of expert then, and I’m not now either.

I guess for me the challenge is dealing with the mixed messages our society gives, and reconciling them into some concept of appropriate behaviour. On the one hand we’ve got young kids in thongs, and on the other we don’t talk about sex until high school (that’s changing slowly though). On the one hand we hold virginity as a virtue (hence insults such as slut and whore) and on the other we value sexual liberation and freedom. On the one hand we say it’s ok for post-pubescent people to be engaging in sexual behaviour, and on the other hand we say that any major age discrepancy between sexual partners is at the least somewhat odd and at the most illegal.

I guess if I really had to get pinned down to something, it’d be that I have trouble being comfortable with sexuality in young people because the line between safe and dangerous behaviour seems much more blury for them.

On the other hand, the girl to whom I lost my virginity had lost her virginity when she was 14 I think (it might have been 13, I don’t remember). She had been having sex 6 years before I had. She was in 8th grade. I guess it’s the sort of thing that happens, and it’s just not something I feel comfortable with. It’s the paternal side of me I suppose.

I also value DemonSpawn52’s input. Although I’m pretty set in my ways at the ripe old age of 22, I am certainly willing to admit that my emotions might be overruling my logic in this conversation. Who knows, maybe I’m just jealous that I wasn’t having sex at 15. :slight_smile:

while the 20 year old arguably might not be ‘emotionally ready to deal w/the consequences etc.’, it’s **much ** more likely that as the age is lowered that the younger person will be less equiped. and while I would agree that people generally mature at different rates etc, until we come up w/ a better way than an arbitrary wall (some sort of definitive maturity test, like an eye chart :smiley: ) where it’s ok on one side but not on the other, we’ll have to deal w/issues of individual differences.

The ‘general’ problem that I would have with dressing young people (pre teens especially, but teens too) provocatively (whatever the hell that means), isn’t necessarily connected with times when they’re w/some one of their choice.

At aged 25, when some creep came on to me I had no problem telling him to get lost and mean it. At age 13? if the ‘creep’ involved were an adult? You bet I"d have had a difficult time.

I work w/offenders, and frankly hear lots times cases where the older person erroneously thought the person was of age because of other cues such as how they dressed, how they acted, where they were. Yea, some can be lying, but some were also telling the truth.

So, my issue would be that I wouldn’t want to dress my non existant daughter in clothing that was likely to make others think she was older than she is. (and for the really young set, it just sets my ‘creep o meter’ off completely to see them dressed as if they’re adults).

wait a sec. it really only holds true for females (for me) ‘cause I didn’t get a ‘creepy’ feeling when I saw Haley Joel what’sshisname in a tux at the Oscars. (I did, OTHO get the’poor kid has to wear a tux’ feeling)>

hmmm. will have to think about this.

You SO missed my point. The word is pedophiles, and that has nothing to do with what I’m talking about. I don’t know if you followed the recent thread regarding the racist asian t-shirts that A&F was selling (If I try to find the link right now I’m sure I’ll get bumped), but what happened is - A&F got a bunch of complaints about these shirts. They then announced that they were pulling the merchandise from the shelves. But in some stores, the shirts stayed on the shelves for a while after they were supposed to have been removed, which of course instantly made them “rare” and made a lot of people go to A&F stores to see if they could get some of this discontinued merchandise. Then the people who bought the shirts sold them on eBay at a hefty profit. In the meantime, A&F got loads of free publicity. The point is not whether you think young girls are going to be harmed - the point is that A&F is deliberately creating controversy as a marketing tool. Read the article that regnad kcin posted. (I’ll re-post it for you):

http://www.purrmag.com/Purr22/rage.htm

What’s next for A&F? The new fall line of Nazi paraphernalia? Maybe some nice silk KKK hoods?

[Note: for the sarcasm impaired, I do not actually think that A&F will market such items, so please don’t respond as if I was serious]