Long story short, being friends with Spike is like being friends with an intelligent wolf. You can talk to it, you can train it, and in Spike’s case, you can even make it feel.
But he’s still a wolf, evil by nature. Friendly, for a wolf. Remarkably caring, for a wolf.
But he won’t be what so many ladies want to make him out to be unless some fundamental change (Soul-restoring? Lame, but the only thing I can think of right now) takes place.
Until then, he’ll be a well-trained, docile wolf: deceivingly sedate, but still subject to his blood instincts, which are capable of surging out of control at any time.
Side thought: He needs to go villian or something. Be good, be bad, but don’t be so lame. That’s Angel’s job.
BTW, here’s a link to a GQ thread that I was reminded of when reading this.
I’ve actually had long discussions with my SO about the same point. I know it’s a TV shows and that these characters aren’t real. And, like I said, on an aesthetic level I can appreciate the twistedness of the Buffy-Spike relationship. But on a visceral, gut level, it creeps me out. It feels real enough to bother me.
I don’t think the Scoobies would have a problem with the Buffy-Spike relationship specifically because he’s a vampire, but because, though, he has done dome good things, he’s basically an amoral bastard. Heck, I wouldn’t want a friend to date a human like Spike.
Spike is neither like a robot nor like a wolf. Both of those things work off of either instinct or programming. They don’t have complex thought to the same degree as humans do. I suppose A.I. robots might, but…
Spike is a demon in a humans body. If Both buffy/angel shows have taught us anything demons still have a mind of there own. Spike is evil, but his evils aren’t on par with other evils (angelus for example).
Remember back when he was evil and crippled-he helped Buffy out because he didn’t want the universe to become totally evil-he liked it the way it was “happy meals with legs”.
I suppose my point is one person’s evil isn’t going to be the same as anothers. Spike said to buffy that she knew how he was when they hooked up.
He was evil. He still is.
On a related note, am I the only one who reads the spoilers for this show? I can’t help myself…
I disagree-Xander had a problem with Angel, because he was a vampire. It didn’t matter a hill of beans that he had his soul or not. The rest of the scoobs, while disappointed, probably don’t have a problem with Buffy-Spike thing.
Come to think of it, Giles might-he’s always hated Spike and I don’t think Spike would have the patience to smooth over that relationship. Not to mention Giles has extensive years of research and experience with vampires, Angel was unique, Spike is neutered. That would be his problem, Spike is still an unholy vamp, Angel has a soul.
I don’t think Giles would be any more upset about SPike than he was with Angel…well, the second time around. If Giles can learn to accept Angel again, after he tortured him almost to death and brutually killed his GF, and let it her in his bed, then Giles can probably get over the whole “nuetered” Spike thing. Also, Giles has always been (even as her watcher) remarkably willing to trust Buffy and let her make up her own mind.
I know we can’t get around it because it is so much in Buffyverse, but I really hate the “soul makes you good” thing. It implies that humans can’t be evil, because after all, they are all equipped with souls. I don’t care how symbolic the show is meant to be, humans are horrible creatures. I’m glad their exploring this fact this season, even if no one else likes the Troika.
But it’s not chipless redemption if Spike loses the chip and remains redeemed. It would be chipless redemption if, say, Drusilla came back, saw Spike redeemed, and said, “Okay, I’ll be good now.” And then something about butterflies.
As I said, no vampire has yet even approached conversion from the dark side without extreme measures – a soul-restoring spell in Angel’s case, and a chip in Spike’s. Show me a single example of a vampire who chooses goodness without a carrot or a stick, and I’ll believe that Buffy might, just might, be acting too fast when she stakes vampires fresh out of the grave.
I’m not saying that a soul makes you good necessarily. It does seem to imply that the person is responsible for their decisions. Spike is not responsible because he doesn’t have the overall choice to be good. He’s evil, but he has the power to decide what sort of evils he wants to participate in.
Angel (on the buffy show) has been remorseful and good because of his soul. I think that is why Giles will cut him some slack.
The same is not so with Spike. Spike can’t kill people, that doesn’t make him good, redeemed, or to be trusted. Giles knows this. Giles knows that Spike would probably slaughter all of the scoobies who stood in his way, he’s said that he wants to hurt Xander, if he didn’t have the chip what’s to stop him?
I think he’s hanging out with the scoobs because he really has no other choice. Previous episodes have suggested he isn’t liked in the demon world-his old stomping ground. He’s made a name for himself as a vampire and I’m sure his “helping the scoobs” hasn’t gone unnoticed. If you remember whenever Angel met new vampires they always said “your the one with the soul” or something to that effect. Spike probably doesn’t have anywhere to go. Killing off the only people who, sort of, accept him will leave him no options.
And yet people have repeatedly said (not in this thread, but in others), “Why doesn’t Buffy give Spike a chance?” or “Can’t she see that he really loves her?”
When people suggest that Buffy should hook up with Spike, – well, that’s deeply disturbing. It’s also disturbing when they gloss over Spike’s consumate darkness, excusing it by saying “But he loves her!” or “Well, he’s done bad things, but I don’t consider him evil” or “Well, he’s just morally neutral.” In fact, at the risk of offending some people, I think that such comments are a dark reflection of one’s psyche.
Besides, as Trion said, the show reflects real-life issues, couched in supernatural trappings. Joss Whedon and Marti Noxon have said so repeatedly. If Spike-lovers can claim that Buffy should pursue a relationship with Spike, then why shouldn’t others point out why this would be a terrible idea?
Also consider the message that such an act would be communicating. It would be like saying, “Hey, your boyfriend can do all sorts of terrible things, including physical abuse. Still, that’s no reason to avoid romance with him.” A prime recipe for an abusive relationship, IMO.
I’d like to add something that some other posters are saying. The buffy/spike abuse thing is two way. Buffy started her affair beating the shit out of him.
I’m not trying to excuse his behavior. Buffy has obviously had some sort of change, a fall from the light side into let’s say the grey side. She’s not entirely good herself right now, none of the scoobs are.
To sum up they are perfectly physically abusive to each other. I think buffy likes it rough-her relationship with riley indicated, at least once, that she likes to “wrestle”.
Is this right? Perhaps not. Does it make for good tv? I think so, especially because of what the next few episodes have instore for us.
IMHO I think Spike has, and will remain, evil. If not for his buffy love he would be out plotting. He’s not as obvious now because buffy would notice it-leading to a destruction of the relationship.
Since the relationship is over, we shall see if he stays “good”.
FTR though, the complaint isn’t that Spike is disturbing – although not everyone seems to agree that he’s a villianous. Rather, it’s that the attempts to justify his behavior are downright disturbing. Heck, if a woman ever said such things in a real-life situation, I know that I’d be deeply concerned for her safety and emotional health.
Angel is an ass. Really let’s look at it. The guy he used to be was a waste of skin. Nothing but a drunken loser. Really. He was lucky he didn’t just get made as a minion. Darlla probably thought he was too hot to waste as canon fodder. Since there was nothing really there the demon, which is a mindless ravaging thing as we saw in Lorn’s dimension, moved in and got intelligence added to its evil. It also seems that some part of who Angel used to be was a bit sadistic as other vampires aren’t nearly as cruel as him. Since there was no real humanity in the person Angelus was a total monster. With the soul restored, presumably the same weak soul, the demon was beaten down a bit. The soul was horrofied and spent a fair deal of time faking it with other vampires and then slinking away to be a pathetic wretch until he was fixated on Buffy and told he had a destiny. Angel resorts to the only thing he is good at when he is in real trouble. Mindless slaughter and cruelity. He seeks redemption but it is unclear how much of that drive comes from a desire to escape the pain of guilt.
Spike used to be a more complicated person. He was a poet, a bad one but apparently something in him called to Druisilla. Since Druisilla sees beneath the skin to soul and all there was substance. That substance was probably a real intense depth of human emotion. The demon moved in and its evil was filtered through emotions. Spike enjoyed everything. He was just an emotional hurricane who didn’t care about the big picture. Self-centered and driven by a need for blood. When he got the chip he could not satisfy his normal needs. At first he tried to be with other vampires but then he went to attacking demons so he could enjoy violence again. He doesn’t want to be redeemed it seems, all he wants is to feel things and follow his instincts.
However Spike has done some very strange things. For instance he cried on Joyce’s shoulder instead of attacking her. He taunted Angel instead of just killing Joyce. He brought flowes in rememberance of her with no card, because she treated him like a real person. He kept Dawn’s secret safe and protected her and acted like someone who cared. When he lost his memory he did not instantly follow the killing instincts only to rediscover the pain of the chip. He fought for good and thought he was a vampire trying to redeem himself.
Spike isn’t in control of his emotions, including the ones deriving from his demonic instincts. This makes him dangerous, capable of great evil and generally a bastard at times but when he does reign them in or focus on the more possitive ones he is a far better man than Angel/Angelus. There is a lot of lingering humanity in Spike, and he likes it there. Angelus reacted quite angrily to being “infected” with love. I think what it comes down to is that Spike may really redeem where as Angel may truly suffer until the PTB allow him rest of some sort.
I don’t think the two situations are comparable. Angel had been genuinely reformed, and had proven himself as such. Spike is merely being reined in by his chip – and even then, that only prevents him from inflicting direct physical harm. As others have pointed out before, Spike still commits plenty of evil.
“Remarkably” willing? How so? Besides, while he does let Buffy make her own decisions, that doesn’t mean that he’d necessarily approve.
You know what I think would be interesting? (And this is all speculation on my part – any spoilers would be accidental.)
Spike doesn’t just get the chip out – he becomes human again. He gets a soul.
And he’s a sociopath who still doesn’t feel remorse for his past actions. In fact, he feels free to commit a new round of ultra-violence.
Sure, William may’ve been a nice young fop, but he’s had over a century of experience to change him. And although Angel feels (felt) tortured because of his soul, there’s no guarantee that everyone would feel the same regrets.
At any rate, that lack of regret, remorse or even apology for his past actions is, to me, the biggest signal that Spike isn’t a “good guy.” If he’s morally gray, he’s pretty far to the black side of the scale. While I think the Buffy/Spike relationship has interesting aspects, I’ll be surprised and disappointed if it there’s any real long-term relationship possibility for the two of them – at least within the just-over-a-season-left lifespan of the show. (Assuming season 7 is the last.)
Not only do I disagree with your idea of what motivated Dru to embrace Spike. I disagree with the assertion that she had any rational reason.
"...and the worm won't dance when it's told."
Back To Spike- I agree with the Spike=evil camp. He may have friends (Joyce, Dawn). He may love and protect those friends. This does not make him good. Spike may have not known to freeze the demon eggs. But, he knew what the demons were capable of, who he was selling them to, and what they would be used for.
Angel is actively doing pennance and seeking to atone for his crimes. Spike is protecting the woman he loves, and occasionally her friends, in order to get her to love him.
When Dru left him , Spike went on a bender. Then he considered love spells and anti love spells. What did he finally decide to do?
Tie Dru to a chair and torture her until she loves him again.
Ooh… I had not made that connection before, The Tim. That is an excellent point. If a vampire, with or without soul or chip, had his memory erased, would he still be a killer? Evidently, the answer is “No.”
Of course, since Spike had quite some experience as a vampire, it may not work as well on fresh-from-the-grave types, but it does raise some interesting questions. Hm…
I don’t think the two situations are comparable. Angel had been genuinely reformed, and had proven himself as such. Spike is merely being reined in by his chip – and even then, that only prevents him from inflicting direct physical harm. As others have pointed out before, Spike still commits plenty of evil.
“Remarkably” willing? How so? Besides, while he does let Buffy make her own decisions, that doesn’t mean that he’d necessarily approve.
That’s very true. It’s not like Spike beat the living shit out of her, then raped her. She was actually winning the fight and then jumped on him.
I also think that Buffy has the power in the relationship. Spike can fight her, but I think we can all agree that Buffy is the superior fighter in the relationship. She could easily kill him at any time. I’m uncomfortable heaping all the blame of abuse on Spike when Buffy gives as good as she gets. Why aren’t we calling Buffy abusive? Remember the ep when he tried to stop her from going to the police, and she sat on his chest and pounded his head in? But it’s ok because she’s the female? Because she has a soul?
I think the fact that nobody is upset over the female beating up the male abuse is rather disturbing, myself. We’re all getting lost in the arguement over whether Spike is a jerk but he is never, ever is the only one acting violently. Does it excuse him? No. Does it mean they share equal blame in any “abuse”? Yes. Would I even call it abuse? I don’t know.
What’s the message that is sent when Buffy pounds on him and he doesn’t fight back?
What about 5th season when Buffy knocked him around on a regular basis and he couldn’t fight back?
What’s the message that is sent when Xander pounds on him when he knows he can’t fight back?
These messages are ok, why? I don’t understand the difference, because after all, aren’t Buffy and Xander Spike’s moral superiors? Shouldn’t they know better than beat up a guy that can’t fight back?
What’s even more peculiar is that Buffy didn’t kill Spike because he was harmless…and yet she pounds on harmless Spike throughout season 5, as does Xander. Are they still morally superior to EEEEVVVVIIIILLLL Spike?
And when has Giles ever stopped Buffy from doing what she thinks is right? He trusts her judgement, and has illustrated that point time and again.
And I disagree that Angel has been generally reformed. Because as soon as he loses his soul he’s the most evil Vampire out there. He’s not reformed, all he has is soul tempering the demon. Angel won’t be reformed until he loses his soul and he still helps people. Afterall, it’s the soul that is horrorfied, not Angel. It’s not even technically his soul, it’s just a soul somoene cursed him with.
Angel before he was vamped was a lay-about, lazy, arrogant, drunken jerk. Afterward he was a psycho-killer. The Angel we know now isn’t the “real” Angel or the vamped Angel, it’s the shell of a guy named Angel who is housing a soul that is aghast at what Angelus used to do. I think it’s pretty obvious from the stories and the flashbacks that the gypsies didn’t restore Angel.
Hmmm, I don’t think I’m getting my point across quite the way I mean to.
There are 3 Angels. The Human Angel, The Vamped Angel, and the Soulled Angel. The only way I think that Angel could be “redeemed” is if the Human Angel and the Soulled Angel were one and the same…but they’re not.
Why does this make him evil? His uber-evil-psycho-bitch-insane-crazy-weirdo GF stopped loving him because she thought he went soft. Remember, they’re vampires, and it seems vampires like their lovin a lil rough.
What about Anya? It’s true she’s human (or she was) and so it follows she had a soul but she never expressed remourse or regret. As a matter of fact, many times she was downright proud of what she accomplished, and bragged about it a great deal.
I can’t remember what her reaction to the demon was in Hell’s Bells. Does anybody have a script? Did she actually apologize to the demon?
pepperlandgirl, I haven’t seen anyone state – or even suggest – that Buffy was right in her treatment of Spike. The Spike-bashers seem quite willing to agree that Buffy did not treat him properly.
While we think it’s absurd to say that Spike is somehow “reformed” or otherwise acceptable, that does not translate to exonerating Buffy. Not in any way.
But people are specifically pointing out Spike’s actions and using it to justify the fact that he’s still evil. However, when Buffy treats Spike the same, if not worse, nobody points out the fact that she’s acting abusive as well.
Spike is not reformed…is Buffy somehow crossing over to the dark side? Their behaivor has been remarkably similiar lately.
I always thought this was a weak area of the show, actually. When Anya first became a recurring character, I thought she and Angel could’ve had an interesting conversation about the deeds they’d done as demons and how they felt about that now.
Instead, the writers turned her into comic relief, which is, I’d guess, the reason the issue never comes up. Bit of a pity, really, although two former demons struggling with their newfound humanity (or soulledness) might’ve seemed a bit much.
